The Peering Podcast

Episode 8
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[00:00:36] Mike Richardson: Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Peering Podcast. The best way to see the future is to peer into it together. I'm excited about this one. You can see everybody. If you are looking on YouTube, we've got a crew here, some of my favorite people from a peer group, a peer forum. Sean Alger and I, Sean is here.

We'll hear from him in a moment. Sean Alger and I co-facilitate as forum leaders and we said, Hey guys, Or girls, uh, why don't you come along and, uh, join us on the podcast. So we've got Pedram here. We've got Brian here, and we've got David here joining Sean and I, and we are gonna explore, we are gonna peer into the challenges of sales leadership.

What do you say, Sean Alger. We're gonna have some fun today.

[00:01:24] Shaun Alger: Uh, we got, we got the A team.

[00:01:27] Brian Banks: Yes we

[00:01:28] Mike Richardson: do. we got Pedram Please say hello Pedram

[00:01:32] Pedrum Moein: Hey guys, how are

you?

[00:01:33] Mike Richardson: we got Brian. Say hello Brian. Awesome. And we've got David. Welcome David. If you are watching on YouTube, everybody, you can see that David is the best dressed of all of us. That's not by surprise because he's a criminal defense attorney, uh, with his own firm.

And, uh, he's probably come hot foot out of the courtroom right now. Uh, and, um, yes, he, like all of us has to sell. So he faces a sales leadership challenge. He's actually the latest member to join this awesome sales leadership forum that we have. What we've got now, Sean, we've got like 12 or 13 members in the group and it's just an awesome place and we're gonna, we're gonna tap into that a little bit today.

We're gonna talk about the realities of sales leadership. We're gonna talk about the power of peers and why Brian, David and Pedrum are members of this group. But let's start with you, Sean. When, when on earth was it Sean? I, I'm fuzzy. I can't even remember. When on Earth did you and I first meet? Do you remember?

[00:02:36] Shaun Alger: I feel where the relationship, I mean, I've always. Loved you and we've, uh, you know, satellites over the years. I mean, San Diego's a small town, and, uh, but when we, I was blessed to join your Vistage forum, uh, you as the chair, that's where, uh, my life definitely changed, thanks to you and other

[00:02:56] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Yeah. And you were, you were running a, a business called My office back then. Right. And that was a sales intensive business. You, yeah. I mean, you've been a bad carrying professional sales and salesperson and CEO for your whole career, Sean? Correct.

[00:03:11] Shaun Alger: Yeah. And unfortunately, as you can tell, I'm not young. So yeah, it's been, uh, I was actually, uh, funny enough, I, I was talking to a friend. I've been on my own since I was 15 and, uh, providing for myself and my family, so I'm 57, so that's a lot of years of selling.

[00:03:29] Mike Richardson: fantastic. And, uh, well, it's just been a delight and, and I'm just having a blast co-leading this group, uh, with you, Sean Alger. Uh, you've got so many insights about. The, the challenge of sales leadership will, will tap into that in a little bit. Uh, yes, everybody, we do have someone on the call here, someone on the podcast who sells executive jets.

How about that? Talk about a big ticket item, headroom. Uh, tell us, uh, how did you get into the business of selling corporate jets?

[00:04:01] Pedrum Moein: Uh, to be honest, to this day I still try and figure out how I got into it. I have zero idea, but, um, I think, I think it just came with a lot of, uh, I think it came with a lot of luck, right? I always think luck is, uh, where opportunity meets preparation and I think I was just, uh, right, right time, right place and it just, uh, it just worked out.

[00:04:24] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Beautiful. And so the company is called Coast Air Center, correct?

[00:04:28] Pedrum Moein: Yes. Yeah, so Coast Air Center. I'm the director of sales and marketing for the company. We're a, uh, private aviation business, or best known as an FBO, a

fixed based operator. So, um, you know, everything aviation related. And we also do, you know, large scale events as like an event venue in our hangar as well.

So it kind of blends into a couple different industries, but it's, uh, it's very, very rewarding. Very fun.

[00:04:54] Mike Richardson: And Brian

[00:04:55] Brian Banks: Yeah.

[00:04:57] Mike Richardson: a tell us about.

[00:05:01] Brian Banks: Yeah, I feel I'm gonna be the slouch of this podcast. Like you got jets, you have like, David has such great stories as a criminal defense lawyer. So yeah, like I sell branded products, so like super fun, but it's, it's a journey, you know, in and of itself. I started an account management and kind of lended itself to consultative selling and you know, there's a weird world where customer service and account management. Turn into selling and vice

versa. A lot of times selling, you're just solving problems and helping people. So that's where I've been and uh, it worked out a perfect time. Um, Sean, I think you're in a group with Josh, our CEO and he got a lot of value of that peer group and he is like, Hey, you're somewhat new to, new to formal sales leadership.

I think you'd get a lot of value in it. And he was

right. Been with you guys for about a

year. It's been awesome.

[00:05:52] Mike Richardson: Yeah, we've been building this group, Sean and I, uh, we sort of really shifted gears with it over the last year or so, and, uh, and, uh, really built it to a very vibrant and strong group. We love having Pedrum, we love having Brian, and not least of all David, we love having you. So, David, what's it like, uh, selling in a criminal defense business?

What's that like?

[00:06:15] David P. Shapiro: It, it's, it's many things on many different days, but it, it is, first off, it's a necessity.

[00:06:20] Mike Richardson: Yeah.

[00:06:21] David P. Shapiro: Right. 'cause we are a private criminal defense law firm. So if we don't sell, if we don't acquire clients that wanna work with us and we wanna work with them,

we don't make money.

And if we don't make money, we can't do all the things that we do that the work that I love to do in the community, donation time, money, all that stuff.

So it is an essential aspect of, of every day of what we do here.

[00:06:41] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Beautiful. And, and I think as we drive around town, we might even see you up on a billboard or two. Is that right? Uh, David.

[00:06:47] David P. Shapiro: RA radio and, uh, you know, social media and some paid advertising here or there. We, we haven't gotten the billboard yet for, for a number of different reasons. We'll, we'll see though.

I don't, I don't, uh, I don't discount anything in the future.

[00:06:59] Mike Richardson: Well, David's a really cool guy and he just joined the group, uh, a couple of months ago. Sean, let's come back to you color in a bit more for us. Sean, what do, what do you do today, Sean? What's, what's on deck for you? What, what are you busy with, uh, across your sort of business?

[00:07:16] Shaun Alger: Yeah, so we, um, I got lucky and we, um, sold my office 15 years ago and.

[00:07:24] Brian Banks: Close to them.

[00:07:24] Shaun Alger: I am a peer-to-peer, uh, junkie. I just believe it's the best way to learn and grow, uh, and give back. And so I was president of Young Entrepreneurs and Vistage, uh, and YPO, uh, and now ref, which is amazing to be on the other side of the, the desk, uh, helping.

So what we did is we created a, a, an origin event that happened, and one of my YPO brothers actually committed suicide And yeah. And the, and the letter was. Basically felt like a failure letting his, his family and his employees down 'cause he couldn't sell. And so that pissed me and my, uh, my friends off.

And so we started this company, uh, we have 16 people and we have a patented process to gather data, um, from clients, competitors, and the current go-to market and sales team. And then we optimize that data into a plan, an org chart, and a process. And so we've done it 700 times. We're getting a lot of, uh.

Over 15 years, we're getting a lot of, uh, um, private equity funded companies. 'cause we've had some huge home runs there. I mean, billions of dollars of equity, uh, um, transfer. So it's been really fun. I mean, I, I love it. 'cause there's, it's just variety. I mean, I, I like to say we've, we've done from cannabis to Airbus.

I mean literally we've done that. Uh, so yeah, so it's been pretty fun. Um, and you know, just learning different businesses, how people make money, how they provide for their employees and their families has been really interesting. Yeah.

[00:08:52] Mike Richardson: And, and Sean, what, what are the common challenges that you mostly see out there? I mean, I'm guessing that when you go into a new client or a new opportunity. You, you already anticipate the, the most common challenges, problems, issues that you are gonna encounter. What are you, what are you, what's the pattern, uh, that you see out there?

[00:09:15] Shaun Alger: Yeah. What a great question. I, and I agree. It's pattern recognition and I think. Everybody on this, uh, podcast. We've talked about that before, right? Especially on the, on David's side, right? He can almost predict what's gonna happen, you know, within the first few minutes of meeting someone. But, but yeah, we see patterns of mostly it's alignment and communication.

Um, and that goes from the whole, I like to think of it like a baton race. I mean, I'm, I'm definitely the least intelligent person on this podcast, but, um, you know how I've thought about it is that.

[00:09:50] Brian Banks: Yeah, we talked about that before. Got on.

[00:09:55] Shaun Alger: Yeah, there's actually a blog if you wanna, uh, make comments. But anyway, so, um, but yeah, so I think of it like a baton race, right? I mean, current project we're doing is from sales and engineering to consulting, to project management, to account management, to accounting and sales rev ops. It's like, how does it go through and what are you saying to your customers?

What are they understanding? So marketing from lead gen to conversion and then to nurture. Uh, just what is, what is the, the differentiator? What problems are you solving? But then internally, uh, you, how do we communicate that and then execute on that? So I would say to your answer, the answer, Mike, would be alignment and communication are the biggest patterns we see.

Yeah.

[00:10:40] Mike Richardson: And then you, you talk about, you've touched upon some of these, but you talk about the sort of pillars of four P's. Correct. What are the four P's again?

[00:10:48] Shaun Alger: So the plan, the sales and marketing plan, not the business plan. Uh, and I define marketing more as lead gen. We don't do branding or pr, so plan people. So your org chart, um, and we like to build the org chart out not only for where you are now, but where, where you're going. And that actually is interesting because a lot of times.

As we all know, we've all started and, and ran companies. You're, you're putting people, you have into roles, but they're probably not the right people. So, you know, the old right seats, uh, right bus, you know, whatever you wanna say, right people, right seats, uh, the process. So we think of it as a funnel. So your sales steps and then all the metrics, so your conversions, all that.

And then finally your platform. So what is your. Enablement, you know, obviously CRM, uh, but there's a lot of neat AI tools. Mike, you've been bringing those to our form, which has been amazing. Uh, Brian, your presentation, uh, rocked my world. Uh, the stuff that you're doing with AI right now, Ingenix AI specifically, so yeah, so that's pretty much the four piece.

[00:11:45] Mike Richardson: Yeah, that's brilliant. What, when was that back in December? Or was it November? Brian, I forget. We had Brian do a, a demo of an AI application that, that they had built and were, were applying and, uh. It opened the eyes of all the other members in the room. That's really the process. We'll, we'll talk about that later.

Everybody. We'll talk about the power of a peer forum, a peer group, a peer advisory board. We'll talk about why, why, why, why is David, why is Pedrum, why is Brian in a group, and why do they stay in this group? We'll talk about that later, but let's come to you, Brian. Um, the four Ps, what's your experience, Brian, of some of the challenges of of sales leadership that you experience every day?

[00:12:28] Brian Banks: Yeah, I feel like my main challenge is just focus.

You know, there's so many things when you're in leadership and it doesn't matter how big your sales

team is or how big of a a group that you manage, there's just a thousand things to do at any given time. So it's just being able to prioritize. Like my goal is to often let the data speak for me.

So creating the systems and processes so as things are happening in real time. You know, as the, uh, sales team is engaging with deals within the CRM or the support team or the account management team is dealing with tickets and customers, that the way that they categorize those tickets where they fall into stages and things like that, help me figure out where my biggest fires are.

So I could at least be, focus my attention there. Um, and then also within that is just that balance, you know, you know, Sean, you were talking about. Sales is oftentimes just like our soup to nuts adventure. And you're, as a sales leader, you have to be, you need to have an eye on everything. And you're communicating with different departments and you're like, Hey, I need this in order to make this customer happy or sell this deal.

And, uh, it's a lot. So just balancing all that, that, that's been my challenge. And I think with the, you breaking it down to the four P's, you know. Cherry picked a ton of awesome ideas from your presentations at forum and just, uh, implementing. And it's not just you. There's, tons of people in the group where I'm just like, oh, that's awesome.

I'm, it's,

it doesn't make sense for me because, uh, I don't sell jets, but I could, you know, pull that in for this. So like, like it doesn't matter if you sell jets or you're a criminal defense attorney or you, you know, sell. Kids markers or cell companies? Uh, like the just representative, some of the people in our group, uh, the perspectives and the tools are often the same.

The

challenge is, and I'm sure Sean, you could attest to it, it's like it's the same pattern. It's just a, a different, you know, dressing.

[00:14:30] Mike Richardson: Yeah. And you, you used the word focus and you used the word balance. And everybody, when, when, when, uh, David Bryan and and Pedram come to their monthly meeting, they, they sign in on a sign in sheet on the wall, and they score themselves out of 10, and then they'll write down what is their biggest. Issue, problem, challenge, opportunity right in front of 'em.

And often you are seeing people put up there things like focus, balance, time management, um, complexity, uh, people, right? Um, and, and plan and process and platform. The other, the other four Ps. But really as you said so well, Brian, even though it's diverse industries and diverse businesses, 95% of the challenge is all the same.

Uh, and that's what you've spoken about. So, so you also used the word adventure. David, by any chance, is every day an adventure for you?

[00:15:21] David P. Shapiro: every every single day. There is not, there's not a dull moment, whether it's as a sales leader, as a criminal defense attorney, or both. There is a, there is a sort of peeling back or, or pulling back a curtain of society that in the same breath alarms me. But also you see the beauty in people, even in some of their worst

moments.

So it's, it's a little bit of everything, every day, a hundred percent.

[00:15:46] Mike Richardson: And so what's your challenge then of, of you? You, you are on your feet, you're in the courtroom, or you are, you are sat with, with, um, you know, clients, uh, who are in difficult situations. You might be, I suppose, in, you know, in the police station, in the jail cell as it were, or whatever it is, or the interview room.

And simultaneously you've gotta be. Making sure that there's enough sales leadership occurring with the business, otherwise, you're gonna be twiddling your thumbs next month. how do you face that challenge every day? David?

[00:16:17] David P. Shapiro: Uh, some days better than others, but we're working on that. I mean, the re the reality is that's the, the nature of the business, right? We are a criminal defense firm that, that currently has three attorneys, one, including me. For, uh, support staff ranging from paralegals to intake specialists to operations assistance. So it is very much, you know, you never could really be a hundred percent focused on one thing because sales is at the, you know, at the, at the pinpoint or at the forefront of everything, because without that, none of it matters.

And that was a, a very big mindset shift that occurred. I've had the firm since 2010, been a lawyer since 2007. Around 2016, 2017 especially, it was that real mindset shift because the nature of my work is very much right. Most people get into it for the right reasons. They don't usually get into criminal defense, at least not initially to, to think they're gonna make a ton of money on day one. They're doing it because they believe in, in, in making a more equitable system for their clients or for the community as a whole. But that always doesn't reconcile with running a business. Right. And, and, and some of the best criminal defense lawyers that I grew up sort of idolizing in San Diego and and around the country are some of the worst business people around. So it was a, it was definitely a big shift to learn, to be aware and to treat it as a business and at the forefront of every business like we just talked about.

No matter what that business is, is sales and making sure you have the right people in the right

places, and they, they at least have a general idea of what to do on day-to-day basis.

[00:17:44] Mike Richardson: You've said that so well and you, you know, you've got to, you've gotta navigate that whole working in and working on, right. I gotta be working in this case and doing my very best for this client, and I better be working on winning the next one. Otherwise it, you know, I'm, I'm gonna be twiddling my thumbs next month.

And, uh, you know, it's the same for you, Brian. Uh, I, I've gotta be working in, you know, this month's output or whatever it is, and I better be working next month's and Pedram, you know, your deals, et cetera, et cetera. And Pedram, it must be easier. I mean, selling private jets, how hard can

[00:18:20] Pedrum Moein: Oh yeah.

Oh so it's the easiest. I actually make a million dollars a day. Uh, it's just the easiest, easiest thing to sell a $20 million object to someone that brings them no revenue at all. So it's very easy.

[00:18:34] Mike Richardson: So tell us more. I mean, what, what are the challenges are, are there, are there very long lead times, for instance? Mostly on, on the jets that you sell?

[00:18:42] Pedrum Moein: Definitely, unless someone like Sean is coming up to me and being like, I got 5 million. I need to get a plane now I know

exactly what I want. Yeah, it's usually like a minimum around a year lead time. It's, it's a lot of working with the client, having personable relationships, taking them out, showing them aircraft. I mean obviously that is what I like to call the fun part of the job, right? But I actually had met with David right before you had joined Ref and we had talked and I feel like him and I are. Both kind of in that same PR like, you know, challenge area where I think a big challenge is like scaling while still trying to be deeply involved with

the business. Right. I mean, I think for me it's like I'm accountable for revenue, but I'm also responsible for building an infrastructure and at least for me, I'm building an infrastructure and systems that never existed since I started the department at my company. so it is a very interesting thing and obviously being a young buck being thrown into a position like this, I really do look, you know, not just to ref but my peers and you guys a lot to like learn what the best decision is.

'cause I think, uh. Another challenge is I'm also a growing adult, so I'm also dealing with what life has to give me while also trying to scale a massive business and a corporation into becoming even greater. But I think the, the opportunity of learning and how to step out of my comfort zone and, and just be myself and lead effectively is, is, is what I like the

[00:20:13] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. And you mentioned REF in there, so everybody, yes. Formally Renaissance executive forums, which rebranded itself to REF Ref. That's what we're talking about here. Um, David, Brian, and Pedram. And, and Sean and I co-facilitate, uh, the ref. Sales leadership forum, peer group, uh, specifically for sales leaders, uh, that they are members of, and they come to a half day meeting once a month and do stuff in between times.

And Sean, I I, I don't know about you, but you know, we've got, as we said, 12 or 13 members in the group, including, um, Pedram and Brian and, and David here. We span. As I think you were saying, Brian, we span a range of industries, a range of businesses. There's only one kind of each seat, everybody, so there are no competitors in the room.

It's totally confidential, it's business, professional, personal life. I just love the diversity of it. Sean, don't you? It's just

amazing. It's just amazing to be students of so many different industries and businesses and leaders. What, what? What's your experience of that, Sean?

[00:21:22] Shaun Alger: Yeah, I mean obviously we have all, uh, you know, white men on this podcast, but uh,

[00:21:27] Mike Richardson: Yes, unfortunately, yes.

[00:21:36] Pedrum Moein: Yeah, we're still figuring out if middle Easterns are white or like light brown. We're still.

[00:21:43] Mike Richardson: We, we do have a, we do have a nice level of gender diversity in the group. I think we have How many? We have three or four, uh, ladies in the group at least. Yep.

[00:21:53] Brian Banks: I like the experience in age level though. You know,

I feel like we have folks who've been in the game for, you know, like, what, 80 years for you, Sean? And then like, uh, but, but we have, we have like, you know, Pedro, I don't know if you're the, the, the quote unquote youngest buck, but we have

[00:22:10] Pedrum Moein: I think Robbie and I are the same. I think me, Robbie, and Kali are all the, I think we're all 26 years old. I think we're actually, yeah. Yeah. We're all

[00:22:17] Brian Banks: And it's so cool. I feel like it's rad to have your guys' experience coming in fresh and then all sort, you know, everybody's all over the place. It's, it always makes for good,

[00:22:27] Mike Richardson: What that speaks to.

What that speaks to is these groups work when you have maximum diversity. So we want. Diversity of industry and business. We want high tech, low tech. We want old economy, new economy. We want services, software, manufacturing. We want, you know, mostly for-profit, but some non-profit. We want gender, we want ethnicity.

We want age. We want tenure. We want personality type. We want outlook. We want black hair, gray hair, every kind of whatever. The more diversity, the better, uh, everybody because that's what fuels the power of peers, which is just a fantastic thing to work with, isn't it, Sean? When we're in that room together, um, it, the, the energy, the commitment, the caring that's in that room is just off the charts, isn't it?

[00:23:17] Shaun Alger: Yeah. And I, I, I love it. I mean, like you said, it's not just business and we've had some pretty emotional, I've walked out of there feeling like, uh, you know, I just want paid for therapy. I mean, it was amazing to hear, and everybody's on their own journey and, and the transparency and, uh, the vulnerability.

But yeah, we have. Everything we have, uh, men, women, different age, different business, um, uh, different races. I mean, we got it all. And, and sometimes the perspective is just, it's life changing. Uh, and not only where they came from, where they, you know, uh, not to name names, but a couple of the stories made me feel like, uh, you know what I mean?

Like, they, they, they've really pulled themselves up from their bootstraps and are, and are, you know, giving back to society in a big way.

[00:24:03] Mike Richardson: So let's talk about why. Let's talk about why Brian Pedram. David, why did you join? Why do you stay? Why are you becoming such great advocates of this peer group, peer forum experience?

[00:24:19] Brian Banks: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:19] Mike Richardson: can I come to you first and then, Pedro and David.

[00:24:22] Pedrum Moein: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Brian Banks: I think you, we kind of hit it on the head here with just that, that unique or that diverse like exchange of ideas. Um, but at is, while all that's going on, while we're all so different, there's so many things that are the same between us. It's the same challenges, you know, there again, it might be a different flavor. Look a little different, but for the most part, we're all dealing, or a lot of us are dealing, except for David. He's his own boss. But, you know, we're dealing, we're, we're managing up, we're managing down, we're doing all these things. We're running into like, well, how do I deal with this person? They're giving me, you know, these sort of vibes and you know, how we troubleshoot that.

It's always super helpful. It's

nice to. Receive that feedback. It's nice to kind of offer your experience. Um, I think in the end, it, I love it because it makes me feel like I'm not alone in it and it feels like these aren't like, unique challenges that I have to like, know, create the, create the wheel, right?

Everybody has done versions of it, and I

just kind of pick and choose what I like and make my deal.

[00:25:22] Mike Richardson: You know, it's so funny, isn't it, because. That little comment right there at the end. Everything else she said was just phenomenal. And, and that little comment, I don't feel alone. It we're back to that whole cliche, everybody, it's lonely at the top, uh, whatever the top is, right at the top of the sales, leadership, you know, equation in the business and in the case of a CEO at the top of the business or at the top of a project or a product, or a program or a territory, whatever.

Whatever scope of responsibility you have that you are sort of at the top of, as it were, it's lonely at the top. It's not just a cliche, it is a reality, uh, because you don't have many peers you can turn to and have a white to the eyes conversation with who can relate to the challenge that you are facing and, and kind of have a.

And knowing White City, the eyes, you know, eye level conversation of Yeah, I, I, I know what you're going through. You know, let's at least share the problem, uh, and see what we can do to help you lean into some solutions. Pedram, what, what, uh, what would you throw on the fire here? Why, why are you with us Pedram?

[00:26:31] Pedrum Moein: You know what? I think it's, I think it's super, super easy to say and it, I think it comes down to this one word we keep using and it's all about perspective. Uh, you know, growing up perspective was the, uh, one of the main reasons why I think I am where I am. I've always been like an observer and being a part of the ref group, like the, the, the forum is just huge because it gives perspective without politics. And that's like the one thing that I think I love about the group is that like internally, we're always expected to have answers, but externally in our group, like. We can actually just talk about our real problems. Like last week I was able to bring up an issue and everybody cared and everybody was like, all right, next month Pedram's the case study.

Let's do it. And I think for sales leaders especially like what, what you were saying about we have to, we have to talk down, we have to talk up. We we're in between, we're. Sales leaders are very, very underappreciated, I feel like on the amount of work we have to do. And it can be isolating, right? And it can be super isolating.

And I think the value isn't just the advice, but it's the alignment and knowing that we don't have to navigate through our problems alone and that we have. Like-minded individuals in the group. We don't have to be all the same age or the same person or interests or industries, but we know that we all go through the same issues.

And I think it's like in the forum, we're not limited. We're not limited to our thinking or like we are limited to our own thinking. And the forum allows our peers to kind of stand. Reveal the edges of what we need to fix, and it helps us kind of, at least me, it helps me kind of focus and know that I'm not standing alone in one place and that I have people that I can lean

[00:28:17] Mike Richardson: Wow. Per perspective without politics. I think he practiced that, didn't he? I think he, I think he rehearsed that and delivered it very nicely. Profound. Profound stop. Um, you know, you reminded me Pedram, you know, I was a sales and marketing VP briefly in my career, many, many, many years ago. When was that?

That was 92 to 94 in an aerospace company in the uk, but serving a global market, it was a man, it was a. Engineering design and manufacturing and product support company of complex a, uh, avionic systems for Boeings and Airbus, et cetera, and I truly felt like nobody else here understands. The pressure cooker that I am in, I'm trying to win big deals on everybody's behalf.

It's a team effort where I have to coordinate everybody and I've gotta show up with a team, team of people to make the presentation to a, a room full of Boeing people. And you know, I'm getting phone calls all day long from customers asking, where's my stuff? And, and, you know, Hey, you've had my repair for three months.

What the heck's going on over there? And I, I truly felt like, you know, the VP of production, the VP of finance, the VP of marketing, doesn't really understand the pressure cooker that I'm in and how hard I am having to work on all those dimensions simultaneously to hold it together. It was, I, I, you reminded me of that.

That was really hard. 'cause I was in a long lead time business like you, where it might take a year, two, three years to win a deal. David, you are, you are the most recent member to join the group. I think you've been to what, two or three or four meetings so far? Um, what drove your curiosity about it?

What are you experiencing so far, and why are you, why are you becoming passionate about this?

[00:30:26] David P. Shapiro: What's really interesting is, is for the last, you know, decade or so, I, I've, I've reached out, got coaching, whether it's remote in person, small groups, one-on-one, you know, uh, peer groups like ref, uh, but. Every other group I've been to it, it ran its course and the excitement sort of faltered pretty quickly, right? And we talk about how everyone's got, you know, 15 different balls in the air and emails and calls and all this other stuff. And, and very early in most of those other groups that I've been a part of prior to joining ref. And in the fall of, of 25, I was always sort of, when I started dreading going and there was no excitement and I was thinking more about what I was not doing as opposed to the value I was getting. And that was part my own fault, right, for not bringing value and then also not extracting value and immersing myself in it. And what really attracted me to REF was, was around the time when I was going to a lot of different peer groups and sort of feeling them out. I knew I needed to make a change and I was excited based on my interactions and my discussions with Sean. Obviously Mike, you and I had connected virtually prior to meeting in person at the first meeting where I guested at, and it's just, it was just the excitement in the room. The welcoming nature of the room is really, really important. And that's stuff that, you know, four or five meetings in where we are now there, there's a genuine excitement where I move stuff out of the way, move legal work outta the way, move court appearances out of the way, make sure that's my rock, so to speak, in the calendar or one of my rocks in the calendar. And that's not always the case with a lot of peer groups. So that has a lot to do with the people in the group. But the people in the group were put there by you, Mike and, and Sean. So, you know, thank you for that and that, that's why I'm there. Because, you know, everyone's very different. Everyone has different backgrounds.

Everyone has different, you know, businesses, they have issues. See, I don't have that issue of, of knowing what the sales and marketing, they don't know what the other person's going through. I am that person, so I know what I'm going through in all those different hats. But it's great to see it as I envision a firm my own, where I'm gonna build that out.

Where I want to have a head of sales, I wanna have a head of marketing. It's good to see some of the issues that you all are facing within that group so I can learn from it, be prepared for it. And utilize your experience to help build my firm and, and hopefully be able to contribute something as well.

[00:32:37] Mike Richardson: I'd love to be a fly on the wall when, uh, David's in the courtroom saying, your Honor, I'm sorry I can't make that court date 'cause that's my ref group that day.

[00:32:47] David P. Shapiro: I, I, I tell you what, I tell you what, earlier, earlier in my career, you, you wouldn't get any grace with any of that.

I mean, I've, I've moved, I, I've, I've taken five day weekends in the middle of life top trials because it was my daughter's birthday because I had to, I had to go, I had to go present. Uh, you know, uh, your know, your rights during, to a professional sports organization out of town. I mean, I, now it's like they don't even ask, I don't have to give an explanation, which is great. Almost 20 years doing it. But yeah, ear early on, I would probably would've been, I probably would've been held in contempt if I didn't show up.

[00:33:19] Shaun Alger: David made me think too, I thought for sure you were gonna say free cuff links, but whatever.

[00:33:25] David P. Shapiro: Don't wanna set the bar too high. Everyone, everyone outside the group. If, if I knew they were gonna get two pair of cufflings from show when they joined, I don't wanna put you outta business there.

[00:33:34] Shaun Alger: Yeah, I don't, unfortunately, I don't wear, uh, I used to wear suits, but yeah, we don't look as dapper, so yeah, I was, I'm glad they're being used. But I, I, I also think a couple things came to mind when you're talking. I mean, I, I think, uh, everybody's very curious. Everybody's very teachable. We have a, a wonderful overlay of humor.

Like we make fun of each other. I mean, my favorite thing when p it stuck with a group one day, he just, his check in was, he's dialed and now everyone talks about dial. I mean, it's, it was amazing. Um, but it's fun too. Like, uh, you know, well been very interesting because. What he is doing, he, there's a difference between a practice or working in the business and then a firm, and he's building a firm and it's, it's applicable to everybody.

I, I've actually, you know, 'cause a lot of people do it, dental, doctor, lawyer, a lot of, a lot of professional service firms that, you know, I mean, David's a personality. He's got a big reputation and name, but, uh, at the end of the day, he is trying to build a firm where it's not just him. And that's, that's a exciting journey.

You're doing a great job.

[00:34:36] Mike Richardson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're an engine room of all of that, right? You, you've gotta be an engine room of everything, you know, fulfillment and delivery. On your feet in the courtroom and, and sales and marketing, you know, to continue the trajectory of growth and evolution for the firm. And, um, everybody that's listening to this, you can already get a sense of the kind of paradoxical blend of a great ref form.

It is simultaneously humorous and serious. We get down to work, we dive deep into the nuts and bolts of the four Ps that. That, uh, Sean was articulating and so much more. We have speakers that come in and give us an injection of inspiration and accountability around leadership and, and artificial intelligence and personal health and wellness and all those kinds of things.

Um, we, we do sharing, we score, we disclose. Uh, we're transparent with each other about how are we doing in business professionally, personally, in life, and how are we doing with our ai? Uh, there's a, a second shine in sheet that people have to stare down every month. Uh, how am I doing in, in deploying AI for myself personally, for my team, and for my business?

And we've seen those scores sort of gradually move the needle. Not least of all, as we brought in some AI speakers. And then the core of the core of the core, everybody that's listening, is we do what's called a case. And that is where one of the members brings a real time, real life issue, challenge, problem, opportunity perhaps.

Uh, and we frame it and prepare it in advance, and they, they bring it to the group as a case. You heard Pedram say. He's up next. He articulated something when he checked in in the last meeting. That was a week or two ago. And so we said, right, let's put you on deck to bring the case in the next meeting in a week or two's time, and he and I will meet by Zoom.

To frame and prepare that case, and then we'll probably spend an hour, uh, in a group taking it through the case issue processing methodology. That's the core of the core of the core of what we do in the group. We use that space, that case process as well. For, for members to bring their sales plans, uh, to the group.

And we, we, we kick the tires on their sales plans and, and make sure that they stand up, uh, to the four Ps as, as Sean was articulating. So guys and, and girls. There are plenty of girls in the group. Sorry, they're not here today. It's just the way it played out. What is it in particular about the case process and methodology?

That, that gets your attention and, and gets your engagement. What is it that you'll, that you most noticed about that, whether it's the sales plans that we've kicked the tires on, or, or some of the cases that we've done recently? Brian, back to you. What is it that you, you notice about that process?

[00:37:34] Brian Banks: Well, I like that it is a process. I like that, there's the presentation of the case, there's the clarifying questions and you know, the, the rigor of how you lead us through those cases. Is It gets us somewhere, right? You don't sit there and talk in circles, you know, there it is. Very intentional that we're gonna move from this to this and hopefully by the end of it, whoever's coming with a challenge or is looking for some sort of direction or help walks away with. A handful of different ideas

or solutions to their problem. So yeah, I just like the fact that there's a process and I've, you know, incorporated that into, you know, my day to day, uh, when I'm trying to figure something out, whether it's in the office or at home, just like, let me, let me learn more. Let me get a little more curious about it. And I love the fact that a lot of times when we're asking questions. Sometimes questions aren't questions. You know, you're, you're leading somebody.

You are like, you want them to answer a certain way,

and you calling people out on their BS and be like, no, no, no, no. You gotta answer. You gotta ask that a different way. Otherwise, like you're, you know, you're leading the witness,

[00:38:39] Mike Richardson: Exactly. Boom. There you go. There it is

right

there. David, David knows a little bit about that. Uh, what about you, David? Let's, let's come back to you. Um, uh, you've done, you know, you've been in the room when we'd be doing a few of those already. What are you noticing about, uh, how we do that?

[00:38:52] David P. Shapiro: You, you have a command, you have a command over the room more than some judges have command over their courtroom, I can tell you that much with, with not letting people get away with certain things and, and asking, formulating questions. And that was, that was very refreshing to see. Um, and, and because it's helpful, right?

Because it's, it's easy to sort of. In every group at every time, and I've been guilty of this myself too, right? You have someone that's like Brian was saying, you're gonna lead you a certain way. You

think you got it figured out,

or you know, you're looking at it from the 30,000 foot view and you're like, oh, cool, this is an easy solution. But to do it that way and to stay structured with that, I think it's a valuable lesson in what we need to do in every decision

making thing we do. What we take back to our offices is what we take back to our personal lives, right? Because so much of that is intertwined and it, and it, it really is. You know, someone can say, oh, you need.

A word that I hate, work life balance and all that stuff. But the reality is, is all of that's intertwined and, and you're, how you come to a conclusion in business is, is in many ways effective to come to a conclusion in life. And I think we all learned from that. I mean, I remember the first meeting I learned a ton just from being quiet and watching that play

out.

So super appreciative of that because there, there are lessons bigger than our individual businesses that I think we could all extract

and, and use everyone's shared experience that way as well.

[00:40:04] Mike Richardson: It doesn't surprise me that you are super tuned into that because I'm imagining when you are, when you are cross-examining somebody or, or for the case overall you are, you are trying to sort of. Beyond an arc of, of, of an argument of, of a line, of, of, of evidence or, or, you know, a reveal of, of something.

And, and if that derails in some way, shape, or form you, you know, it now gets harder for you And,

yeah. It's exactly the same in the way that we do a case, right? We don't want to mutate anything at all. We want the shape of this conversation to unfold in a way. That is, that honors the member bringing it and honors how smart they are and honors how much leadership they have, and really allow them to hear themselves more than anybody else in the room.

That's really what the process is, everybody. It's a, it's a allowing them to hear themselves and for the answers to be surfacing in them more than any before. Go ahead David.

[00:41:11] David P. Shapiro: that's

also really effective in sales, especially in my world, right? Is, is you're not doing it to them, you're

doing it for them. Right? So you, you, you get someone to see in, in my line of work. Hey, listen, how I've gone about it, my, my poor impulse decision allegedly that got me into this mess

[00:41:26] Mike Richardson: Allegedly.

[00:41:28] David P. Shapiro: You gotta throw that in there is, is not gonna, is, is, is not gonna get me the right attorney that's gonna help me regain some control of the situation, right?

So we're all about trying to move the poor impulse decisions more to the left on the timeline, right? And, and a lot of that is not just, you know, me talking or, or, or my intake team talking. Someone, someone about what they need is not gonna be an effective technique. One to put them in a better place

and selfishly with the firm to get the sale

as opposed to guiding them to that answer.

And whether it's us or whether it's the other four or five firms in the county

that could do things at a remotely comparable level,

right? At least we're getting them in a better place than how we, than how they started or how they came

to us. So super, super valuable in that parallel within sales as well is, was apparent from the get go.

[00:42:18] Mike Richardson: Pedram, what else would you throw on the fire here? What, what, uh, what do you notice about the case process? And you're about to, you're about to do one in a of weeks.

[00:42:27] Pedrum Moein: Yeah. I mean, I think the most interesting thing is those open-ended questions you're always honest about, you know, those, those do, those do wonders. You don't, you don't really think about it. And I think it's the biggest thing is it's like it, uh, those cases, they create clarity. And I think that's all that is.

It creates clarity when there's a

mess. And I think what, uh. What David was just explaining too is like, you, you know, not only does that help us create clarity for ourselves, it teaches us to create clarity for our, our clients

as well, right? Like, I'm, I'm huge. I'm the same way. I'm like, I tell people, you, you don't have to buy from me, but I want to help guide you towards the right direction because I care. And it's, I want to give you clarity. You can go on, go anywhere else and get a plane or get event space.

But yeah, I think that clarity is just, it's, it's huge and it, reinforces the group and

lets us all know that we all have different challenges, but it doesn't mean we can't, you know, we share those challenges.

Right. And I think that's what's unique about it.

[00:43:25] Mike Richardson: Yeah, you know, I've been doing this work for 22 years, and as you heard, Sean's been hanging around peer groups for equally as long. my favorite part is, is the case part. And if I think back over those 22 years, can I say that I've seen and heard all of it. Now, of course I can't. But boy, oh boy, oh boy, have I seen and heard a lot business, professional, personal, and life, as Sean said earlier, and for those 22 years, you know, at the end of that hour.

We've been processing a case I, I've asked the same question by and large, especially when it's a new member doing it for the first time, I ask them, where else do you have that? You can go and do what we just did with you for the last hour? And unless they're part of some other true peer forum experience, which, which many aren't.

[00:44:17] Brian Banks: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:19] Mike Richardson: of the time. The answer I get to that question is, I, I don't, I, I, I don't have anywhere else that I could go and be as transparent and honest and vulnerable as I just was here. I don't have anywhere else. And that is back to what you said, Brian, about it's lonely at the top.

Because everywhere else that we go, you know, we gotta put on, we gotta put our face on our game.

Face on, right? And you know, you walk up to someone at a networking event and ask them, how's business? What are they gonna say? Oh, it's great. I love to look at people and sort of knowingly look at them thinking, no, it's not. I know it's not. I know it's not uniformly great. I know there's something going on somewhere behind the scenes.

The only question is, you know, do you have the, do you have the conditions in which you can safely share that? So that the magic can happen, and that's what we create in a peer group. Sean, you've been hanging around this kind of peer group process. You've been processing cases over the years. You've brought your own cases over the years.

What, what do you wanna share about the case process?

[00:45:26] Shaun Alger: Man, I love it. Uh, it's, and it's hard to describe it without experiencing it. Um, and I know everybody agrees. It's just, it's such a. It's scary at first. Uh, it's a time commitment that really forces you to sit down and, uh, you know, invest some time in thinking about the issue and presenting it clearly.

I think the clarifying part of it, um, and then just Mike, you working a process, you know, it's not winging it. It's, it's truly scientific in nature. And then just the engagement from amazing peers. It always delivers something that's actionable and, and, uh, I, I feel like an unfolding through the process.

It's fun.

[00:46:10] Mike Richardson: Well, hey everybody, as we start to, to land the plane here, uh, listeners, uh, it, it's, it's, it's just been a threat. It's been the most rewarding and fulfilling phase of my career to be doing this kind of work. It's just such a blast to be in a room with, with peer groups, to be in a room with these members that have been on this podcast today.

To be in a room with Sean and to have. To be in their lives and to have them in in mind. And ours is just phenomenal. And, um, as we, as we part here, everybody, what, what, uh, what final words would you like to leave our listeners with about, your experience of being a sales leader and the value of being in a peer forum to help you step up to the challenges of being an effective and efficient sales leader.

Um, uh, David, what, what would you wanna, what, what parting words do you wanna leave with our listeners here?

[00:47:04] David P. Shapiro: Yeah, I, I think the first is to, to accept the fact that there are always gonna be challenges and, and, you know, what's that new level, new devil or, or different variations of that, right? Like, as you, as you grow, there's no final destination, so to

speak, right? It, it's just you're continuing to grow and evolve and that's part of it.

And the sooner you accept that, the

better. And, and the sooner you accept the fact that, you know, there's value in these pure forums, you're just gonna find the right one.

The better you'll be and, and to be able to go in with, you know, with no ego to be vulnerable as, as much as you could be over time and, and find the right group.

Because, you know, every group is not for everybody.

Uh, but it, there's, there's endless value if you're in the right group

at the right time with the right mindset. But that starts with you.

[00:47:47] Mike Richardson: Awesome. Great. Lovely. Uh, Pedram, what was your ad?

[00:47:50] Pedrum Moein: you know, you hit it right on the head there. I mean, it's, you know, I personally didn't come through, uh, a traditional sales path, right. And, and I, I got here putting myself into different positions, being thrown into the fire, you know, getting all up into the mix. And I, I think he just hit it right on the head.

I mean, it's, it's just. I think I got involved in this group at a very impactful moment in my career, um, as a young guy just trying to build up. And I think that as a sales leader we carry a lot of things quietly and, uh, having a space like ref that genuinely cares and matters, I think it's just made it

[00:48:28] Mike Richardson: Awesome.

[00:48:29] Pedrum Moein: easier for me.

[00:48:30] Mike Richardson: Awesome. Great. Brian, what was your.

[00:48:32] Brian Banks: you kind of touched on it a little bit, David, but like I, if I was gonna leave our viewers, listeners with something like in, in terms of ref, I think what I love about it is, and it touches on what you were talking, uh, about our sales processing, just being curious. Right. And, um, for me that's been a, a big kind of focus lately is just being okay. Outside of my comfort zone, like I don't think I ever would've joined a peer form unless Josh had been like, Hey, you should check this out. Because, you know, I didn't know what was on the other side of that door. And once I got in, I was like, oh, this is awesome. So kind of putting yourself out there, you know, being vulnerable, being curious, having a little doubt, it's like totally fine.

I feel like that jump has been awesome,

[00:49:18] Mike Richardson: I love that language. What's on the other side of the door? I love that. Right? It's a different world in there. Uh, let me, let me have the courage to stick my head in and check it out. Awesome. Uh, Sean, uh, this is a pretty darn unique group, right? You and I don't know of. Many or possibly any other, certainly local, uh, sales, leadership, peer groups, specifically for sales leaders.

And, uh, it's a thrill, uh, to work with you. Sean, uh, what do you want to leave our, our listeners with?

[00:49:51] Shaun Alger: So, you know, just amplifying. I mean, you're not alone. We all said it, right? You're not alone. Uh, don't get depressed, don't get sad. Don't give up. Uh, you know, stay curious. And I think the lifelong learning and growing is, it's fun, right? It's an adventure. And doing it with people that you respect and, and care about is huge.

And so, I, I would just say. Wherever you are geographically, find a group. They're out there, or you can create one.

Um, call Mike. He'll help you.

[00:50:23] Mike Richardson: So there you having everybody. Uh, another episode of the Peering podcast. Today we've been experiencing exploring, the challenges of sales leadership, everything from corporate jets to criminal defense and, uh, branded, uh, uh, merchandise In between. Uh, we've explored, uh, the value of being in a peer group, uh, to help you with that and not least of all, to be less lonely and, uh, more, uh, uh, in a support ecosystem that you can count upon when you need it.

thank you. Thank you. Thank you David Pedram and Brian for taking time out of your busy sales days to be here with us. Uh, thank you, uh, Sean, for all that you bring to this group. Sean, everybody just brings such a font of insights into the sales leadership challenge from his, uh, career long experience of all of that.

it's been an absolute blast, everybody to have this conversation. Thanks so much for being here and, uh, we'll catch you next time. Everybody on the next episode of the Peering Podcast.

[00:51:31] Brian Banks: Thanks, Mike.

[00:51:32] Pedrum Moein: Thanks.