The Peering Podcast

Episode 10 -
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[00:00:36] Mike Richardson: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Peering podcast. The best way to see the future is to peer into it together, and this is an episode I've been looking forward to, uh, for a long time already, since I got him scheduled to come and join me. We are joined by Leo Bata. Welcome Leo.

[00:00:56] Leo Bottary: Mike, it's so great to be here. I've been looking forward to this as well, so it's, uh, good timing. I, I know we're gonna have a great conversation, so, um, let's have at it.

[00:01:06] Mike Richardson: And I believe, Leo, correct me if I'm wrong and we'll, we'll introduce you a little bit more in a moment, but I believe you just got off a red eye

right from, from the San Diego area where we both live to the east coast where you are doing yet another week of pretty much back to back to back CEO workshops all around the power of peers.

Correct? Is that what you're doing

this week?

[00:01:29] Leo Bottary: That's right. That's right.

[00:01:30] Mike Richardson: And you've been doing that for how many years now?

[00:01:33] Leo Bottary: Well, you figure I left Vistage at, uh, in late 2016. Um, so it was, uh, started really right then and it's been going through since for, for Vistage Forze Canada for, you know, work with ref, a whole other organizations around the world as well. And, you know, it's so great when you can connect with all of these people over time and I just continue to learn so much.

It's, it's a wonderful

experience.

[00:01:57] Mike Richardson: So we're lucky to have Leo today everybody, 'cause he is in the thick of all of that this week. His his feet barely touch the ground these days. He's so in demand. And let me explain why and, and we'll, we'll get into how we met, you know, many years ago. Uh, a a little bit more in a, in a moment. But Leo, you've published, I lose track now.

I lose, I lose count, right? You've published. Three, if not four. If not five books

[00:02:24] Leo Bottary: Yep. Four books and a second edition of, uh, peer innovation.

So, yep.

[00:02:30] Mike Richardson: yeah. In this whole domain, everybody of. Peer power, and it goes back to the first book that I'm, if you're watching on, on YouTube, everybody, I'm holding up these books as we speak here. Uh, it goes back to the Power of Peers that I think you published in 2016.

And then, uh, you published another book, what Anybody, what Anyone Can Do, and then you published your first edition of Peer Innovation, which I believe you've subsequently published a second edition of. And you're about, or have just published kind of a field guide. Is that correct?

[00:03:02] Leo Bottary: That's right. Yes.

[00:03:03] Mike Richardson: And so Leo, everybody has become one of, if not the global thought leading.

Guru, let's say, of everything to do with the power of peers, peer forums, peer groups, peer advisory boards, and what he has laterally come to call peer innovation. Peer powered innovation inside of organizations. And uh, Leah, let's go all the way back to the beginning. How and when did you and I meet?

[00:03:35] Leo Bottary: Well, we met when I was at Vistage and um, you know, what was obviously terrific was, um, we had the opportunity as you know, employees of Vistage to become part of a peer group. And so I joined up, uh, with your peer group, was in it for a good six plus years and it was a fantastic experience. It was just, um.

It was great and I draw upon some of the, you know, examples in many respects. Um, you know, all the time today still.

[00:04:06] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Yeah. So 2010, I think, to 2016 is when you were with Vistage. And uh, we'll get you to color in the rest of your sort of headline, resume as we go. 'cause you've done, you know, doctorates and all kinds of different things and teach in all kinds of different places. But Leo showed up, I think 2010 at Vistage.

I'd been a Vistage chair for about six or seven years by that point in time. As you heard, everybody, uh, the head office of Vistage happens to be in San Diego, and that's where I was a chair. I was running a number of groups at that time, including a key executive group, and I think the phone rang one day and it's one of the, you know, recruitment people in head office and saying, Mike, uh, we've got a candidate for you from.

Uh, uh, our staff here at head office, I think you were the VP of Communications, Leo, and so Leo came in and joined, uh, the peer group. And so we, we got to journey along together for six years, month by month. And then Leo, I distinctly remember one day you came back from a tour where I think you'd been doing some brand research.

You said something like, I've come to a realization, everybody that Vistage is trying to sell a Mercedes to people who don't understand the category of what a car is. Tell us more about that realization that you came to.

[00:05:27] Leo Bottary: There's no question. So I was leading a brand, a rebranding effort at the time for Vistage, and I'm going around most of North America, and I'm talking to CEOs and business leaders, and they weren't part of groups. And I would ask them, well, how do you learn? How do you grow? How do you bring new thinking in your company?

And to a person, they would say things like, well, I read books. I have a coach. I hire consultants. They went on and on and on, and they named everything. Except being in a peer advisory group, it wasn't even in their consideration set. So when I was reporting on the status of the brand rollout to the board of directors, I took the opportunity to share this experience I was having in the field.

And I said, I don't know why you should be all so content with the idea that no one knows what we do. And I, I shared this story and I basically said, and it's not just us, it's our competitors too. I said, every one of us is trying to sell a Mercedes to someone who doesn't even know what a car is. And, and so, so the point, and, and what I'm grateful for is from the very beginning, the initial research, the book, the Power appears, was never about Vistage per se.

The last thing we wanted to do is write some kind of hardcover brochure about the company, some vanity piece that talks about how great we are and why what we do is so amazing. It was the idea of really looking at the entire category and basically putting something out there so that people could read it.

And if they didn't know what it was all about, now that at least they're aware of it and if it felt like it would be right for them, they'll find the group that's right for them. And if it isn't, that's okay too, but at least it won't be because they weren't aware of

it.

[00:07:00] Mike Richardson: I, I, I love it. And you know, way back in 2003 when I first became a Vistage chair. I mean 80% of the time, if I was sitting opposite, you know, a prospective candidate member, 80% of the time they would, they would ask me, sorry, what? What is a peer group? And even today, Leo and I dunno what your experience is even today.

You know, I'm now with ref what used to be Renaissance Executive Forums rebranded itself to REF Ref. Which has also been doing this for decades. We're in our 32nd year, we're in 20 different countries now. I still have probably a third of the people that I interact with still ask me, what is a peer group?

What's your experience, Leo? It's less of a well kept secret, but still, still somewhat,

[00:07:50] Leo Bottary: I think that's right and, and a lot of people think about it first in terms of, oh, it must be some networking group is kind of the first, um, place. They tend to go with it. And by the way, there are groups like that. There are peer groups that are for different industry practices. There are peer groups for all kinds of things out there.

But I think the peer groups that we're talking about that are ref at Vistage and EO and a whole host of others, uh, around the world. Are designed to bring people together. Who share their connective tissue, for example, becomes, uh, we're all chief decision makers, for example, in our company, right? One example of it in a CEO group, they're all the chief decision maker, and now they all come from various industry sectors, which is really cool because they can learn so much from one another.

In fact, one of the big aha moments for me in being in your group was I felt like I got the common challenges part. Like there's no question that. In that role, you're gonna have a lot of common challenges. But what was fascinating was every once in a while someone would bring up a process or a practice they had from their industry and someone else would hear it and go, wait a second.

Nobody in our industry does that. And that could really be effective for us. And by the way, may even be a competitive differentiator. So when we pick our heads up. Of our company, out of our industry sector, and really can kind of get exposed to a lot of the ways, you know, things are done in a lot of different industries.

It's, it's huge. I mean, it's, it's really

powerful.

[00:09:22] Mike Richardson: So tell me more, Leo, obviously, uh, 2016, you pretty much decided, I mean, you'll, you'll tell us in your own words in a moment that you were gonna take the leap and dedicate yourself to this passion you discovered around peer power, peer group's, peer innovation along the way you did a doctorate. So tell us more about how did you arrive at this convergence?

Of discovering what was going to then be the organizing principle for what? It's been a decade now, right? Since you took the leap and devoted yourself to all of that.

[00:09:59] Leo Bottary: Yeah, I kind of felt like I had put so much work into that first book, particularly into a lot of the research and a lot of what came through that that. I kind of felt that that content. Wasn't going to live beyond, you know, my hanging onto it because anybody else is gonna look at it from a kind of a partisan perspective, if you will.

They're gonna take the Vistage view or the Tech Canada view, the EGN view or whatever happens to be. and I wanted to truly stand for the category and truly be, you know, that person out there who said. Find the group that's best for you, but at least I want you to understand how and why this is so powerful and what's been fascinating.

I think over, you know, the past 10 years or so, right is, is kind of here we are. Um, it has never been more relevant for CEOs to actually engage in this kind of activity, to step into this practice field, if you will. You know, every, let's face it, business is every day is game day. You know, and it just is.

And you know, there are really no practice fields in many respects. And it's as a practical matter for A-A-C-E-O, uh, to take one day a month or a half day a month or whatever, you know, the construct is for particular group, just to be able to, uh, engage with other CEOs again so they can pick their head up or the company so they can have a practice field where they can.

Talk about the kinds of things and get the kind of perspectives that other CEOs can bring to the table that they don't have access to. Um, and largely because, let's face it, I mean, the people who surround many CEOs, they've got a stake in the outcome somewhere. They're not impartial. Um, and it becomes difficult for that CEO to get really honest feedback.

And, and honest information. So this is a place where, uh, where they can go do that. And as you well know, they're not bashful about, you know, challenging each other and I think in a very healthy, positive way.

[00:12:07] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So it just so happens that, uh, last month for my. My peer group of CEOs up here in Temecula, Marietta, which is about a year old. I started a year ago, but in a year, Leo, and you, you know how, you know this goes, uh, we filled it to 17 CEOs and, um, I had a videographer come by and set up outside the room.

And, you know, during the course of our afternoon together, members would take it in turns to step out of the room for two or three minutes. Shoot a testimonial video that I gave them no real guidance on, apart from just a very skeletal kind of, you know, you might wanna talk about this, this, and this. And, uh, they, they each did it.

I think, you know, we got 15 in total. There were a couple of people missing. It was so wonderful, you know, a couple of days later to just scroll through those and listen to. This unprompted, unscripted way in which they distilled the value of being in a forum like this. And most of them said, you know, yeah, of course I get some tactical things out of it, but mostly it's a much more sort of holistic human, um, sort of mindset kind of thing.

What's been your experience of that, Leo?

[00:13:31] Leo Bottary: You know, we live in a world where you go on LinkedIn, right? Have you ever imagined that there's more experts on more topics and more people crushing it in this world than everybody? Because that's everybody's highlight reel up there, right? We're all seeing all this stuff and we all see our own lives and we understand all the challenges we've got.

We get the behind the scenes piece. And so we unfortunately tend to compare ourselves to that highlight reel. And it can be pretty discouraging sometimes. Well, when you actually can be in a room of people, and by the way, every one of those people, if you put 'em in a room, they got stuff going on too. Um, but.

This is an opportunity for them to be real with each other. And I think people find that incredibly, um, you know, uh, gratifying and, and it's such a gift to everyone. We're, we're all of a sudden, you know, at the end of the day with all of the benefits, um, that come from being, uh, part of a group like this, just the idea that I'm not alone.

Other people are experiencing the same things I am. And there's something to be said about that that says, okay, um, so A, I'm not alone. And B, because other people have these shared challenges too. Let's see if we can help each other through

them. And, and that

[00:14:45] Mike Richardson: I love that. I love that. I love

the language. I love the language of, you know, LinkedIn is the highlight reel, and, and therefore in some respects, when you come to a confidential peer group, everybody. You get the low light reel, right? You get the down

[00:15:00] Leo Bottary: You get it all.

[00:15:00] Mike Richardson: stuff.

You get it all and what's going on.

And, you know, one of, one of my favorite things to say, you know, to members, you know, is, you know, if I see you at a net, if I, if I see somebody at a networking event and I walk up to them and I, I say, Hey, how's business? They'll typically say, oh, it's

[00:15:16] Leo Bottary: Sure.

[00:15:16] Mike Richardson: And I'll look at them thinking, you know, and I might even say, no, it's not.

I know that it isn't uniformly great. And the members, the members like, are nodding their heads saying, yeah, absolutely. You know, when I'm out and around town, I've gotta put on my game face, as you said. I don't have a a, a, a space in which I can, I can practice and be real and fum and fumble, right? Fumble the ball safely and confidentially.

Uh, and just be human and be real. I love, I love that way of expressing it.

[00:15:48] Leo Bottary: it's a challenge. Um, you know, one of the things that, um, you know, comes up all the time is I'll bring up to groups. I'll basically say that about 80% of members okay, in groups, not every group, not every member, right? And I'll ask them, they find it easier. To share business issues with one another in these forum, or do you think they find it easier to share personal issues?

Well, it's fascinating because some people, you know, I think the majority say, oh, well business certainly is much easier than sharing like the personal stuff going on in your life. And in fact, it's the opposite. And the reason it's the opposite is because you're around these people that you really respect, right?

And so you don't wanna look lesser than to these other. CEOs that you're in a room with, right? You don't wanna talk about how you screwed up or how you're underperforming, or how this happened or that happened, um, because you of just that little bit of fear in the back of your mind that somehow you're gonna be judged for that.

And this is where when you have. Groups come together and truly understand how to, how to work with one another, how to lean into their curiosity, right? Because when we bring things to the table, right, in those difficult conversations, oftentimes, and we're talking about stuff, um, there's a, there's an element of just, you know, having to.

Put something out there, which can be really, really hard to do. Um, and what do we oftentimes do when people tell us things right? We will, in our, in the back of our minds, we're quickly kind of making assumptions, right? We're jumping to conclusions. We may even rush to judgment on something. The more practiced people get at this, the more likely they will lean into their curiosity.

The more likely they will start asking themselves questions about the things they think they know.

[00:17:44] Mike Richardson: Yep.

[00:17:45] Leo Bottary: so if you tell me, for example, that you made a decision for a certain reason and what'll tend to happen is, um. I might come away and think, oh, I know why he made that decision. Now, the longer the conversation goes on, the more I'm likely to find out, wait a minute.

Now that may have been part of it, but here's the big reason that he decided to do. Now all of a sudden that sheds a whole new light on the dialogue. And when people get practiced at that, they start modeling those behaviors, right? So they not only create more value from one another in the room, but they model those behaviors back at their company and they do it for their direct reports.

And this is where the practice field element to this comes in. It's what John Dewey refers to as collateral learning, right? So we also, we take in content directly, of course. You know, we read books, we watch videos, we listen to speakers. But what we learn from how we learn, how we engage with one another, that kind of creates the fundamentals that bring us to how we lead and how we listen, and how we do a lot of

things.

[00:18:45] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Beautiful. And, and, and, you know, you're bringing such color to the, the, the idea that, you know, when you create the conditions, the magic can happen. And, it is a magical place. And I've been, as you know, now, I've been doing this work for, you know, 20, 23, 24 years. And it seems to me, Leo, that. The most pivotal condition that we create is trust.

And, and these, these kinds of groups are called, you know, peer groups, peer forums, peer advisory boards. Sometimes they're called masterminds. Sometimes they're called circles of trust, aren't they? Because that is the most pivotal factor. And I know that you, you. You talk about trust, you talk about the Edelman Trust Barometer, I think it's called, and you've been tracking that for years and years and years.

Correct. Tell us more.

[00:19:38] Leo Bottary: so first of all, Edelman, uh, trust Barometer is a study of public trust in institutions, government, business, media, and NGOs. They've been studying it since 2001. So here we are in 2026. Okay? So over the years, of course. Well, fundamentally, one of the reasons I pay attention to it is when we don't trust to our institutions, who do we look to?

Right? We look to one another and there's never been a greater example of that than what has happened. You know, in the recent, you know, couple of decades. very, very quickly, I'll just share, there are two narratives that have come through that I think make the 2026 results that much more significant.

So the first narrative is that in 2003, People weren't necessarily going to listen to everything a company said about his product and service and how incredible it was they wanted. You know, corroborating evidence from a trusted source might have been Consumer Reports, New York Times article, something like that.

By 2005, trust shifted from authorities to peers. Now I want to talk to the end user. In 2006, that became such a big deal that basically Time Magazine's, person of the year was you and it was me, and it was all of us listening to this podcast. If you were alive in 2006, you were. Time Magazine's, person of the year, and, and the reason for it was because you had emerged as this credible spokesperson, but now you had the tools and technology not just to share your ideas and opinions with friends and neighbors.

You could share it with the world. You're gonna change the world. Okay. Now all of a sudden, so as we're sitting with that for a moment, we hit the 2008 financial crisis. By 2009, trust and business plummets. So now business is scrambling to figure out how do we go about regaining trust? We can't even do business if nobody trusts us.

So here's what they did in 2011, their grand strategy partnered with government. Now people hear that today and they go, whoa, wait a minute. Time out. All right? Because in 2026, you don't need a study to tell you the public trust and government media are at an all time low, right? But what's interesting about that though?

Is that even in 2026, people still tend to believe in public-private partnerships. And back then business recognized we can't just be seen as the source of the problem. We have to be a partner in the solution somehow. And that was, you know, I think at the time, the best way to do it. And by 2021, they became most trusted.

Now I'm gonna switch back to the first narrative for a minute, because in 2018, while we were wondering in 2003, 2005 and 2006, who to believe by 2018, we don't know what to believe anymore. We literally have this situation where people can't even agree on a common set of facts. So now what's starting to converge, right?

You've got people trying to make sense of the world. You have business being most trusted, right? And in 2019, um. Edelman asked a very specific question of employees. They said to them, where do you find out what is really happening in your organization? And with all the lists of all of the sources of info available to people topping that list was informally from my coworkers.

[00:22:36] Mike Richardson: right.

[00:22:37] Leo Bottary: Now think about it from the perspective of how they ask the question now. Clearly they, in most cases, they could have first learned the information from any one of those other sources. What we're talking about in terms of why the peers top the list though, is because this is where they find out what it means. So anytime anybody hears anything, it's not like they just go back to their business and then they just go about their business and that's it and go back to their desk or wherever they're going. They engage one another in sense making exercises. Right. So since 2019 in particular, this has continued to grow.

It's to a point today where trust in other employees. Um, trust in friends and neighbors, and to some degree too trust in my own CEO, not in CEOs in general, but trust in my own CEO is, is really starting to play a huge role. So now you realize that on one hand you, you've got AI going on. On the other hand, you've got a trust gap that you've tried to figure out here because, um, while people trust one another.

There's a little wrinkle in this, which basically says, yeah, I trust my fellow employees and my managers as long as they pretty much share the same view of the world that I do. Because if they don't, then now I don't wanna work with those folks anymore. I don't wanna with those folks anymore. So now leaders have to play the role as trust brokers, right?

How do we bring what's common and what people can agree on together so we can collaborate effectively for the good of the organization? And. You know, when you start looking at how employees are influenced one another, the leader's role as trust broker, I can't think of a more. Important time for CEOs to avail themselves of this practice field because they better get good at that trust brokering in a hurry.

And so I think a, a huge way or huge opportunity, you know, for them to do that is by being part of a group. And, and I think the, the Edelman Trust barometer is something that I've advocated for a long time that really everyone should pay attention to. And quite frankly. They, they do. It's, the results are announced at the World Economic Forum in Davos and have been for quite some time now, and you've got people from every sector of the economy paying attention to what this is all about.

[00:24:53] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Oh, beautiful, beautiful. Love it. And, and whether, you know, everybody, whether you think about this along the terms that, that Leo's just been articulating or you think about this in terms of teamwork or, or high performance teams or culture core values, I mean. All roads lead to trust, right? All roads lead to trust.

It is the underlining foundation of everything. Um, and I love what you're saying, Leo, about, you know. If you want to create those conditions inside a company, Mr. Or Mrs. CEO, or or senior executive, you've gotta have a place to uh, practice. You've got a place to leverage diversity of different industries and different businesses and have those aha moments.

Uh, and leverage different insights in, in terms of the different approaches that different people are taking. And that's, that's the power of peers. That's the power of a peer group. tell us how did you get from this passion around the power of peers to this place you are now at, which is how do you take the power of peers back inside your organization to supercharge? Innovation, peer innovation, as you call it. How did you make that transition?

[00:26:16] Leo Bottary: It, it really started with the second book in many respects, because on one hand, as I got deeper into studying groups and how they work and all that, it was never designed initially to be looking at bringing that into teams. But it was. When I wrote, uh, what Anyone Can Do, and that was the result of a podcast that I did called The Year of the Peer in 2017.

And, uh, I called it that. So I'd have an exit strategy from podcasting pretty much at the time. Right? Um, and, and so.

[00:26:45] Mike Richardson: I.

[00:26:45] Leo Bottary: There you go. So I do these 50 interviews, um, all from very successful people all, and I asked everyone of 'em the same question. I said, did you become successful all by yourself? And they all, they all laughed at the idea, of course not is ridiculous.

They countless people, you know, um, have helped them get to where they need. And it's why it's so important for them to want to pay it forward to others. So the, the big. A rather obvious conclusion that comes from that book though is that successful people ask for help. They don't see it as a sign of weakness.

They regard it as an act of resourcefulness. So I think when you start to take and look more closely at what CEO forums do so brilliantly and combine that with successful people's naturally in inclination and wanna collaborate and work together toward a common goal, um, then you can really. Make that transition quite easily into why what groups do so brilliantly and they have for so long, uh, really relates well to high performing

teams.

[00:27:42] Mike Richardson: Beautiful. And let, let's, let's just sort of join up some of the biggest dots here and, and perhaps that opens up a next conversation here for us around artificial intelligence, right, which is, okay, so. Innovation or peer innovation as you, as you've coined the term, you know, has never been more crucial.

Here we are entering a phase of exponential innovation and disruption that's fueled by artificial intelligence. And at the same time, I think, I think you and I will agree strongly here, Leo, that you know, I like to talk about collective intelligence. Which is really the power of peers on steroids, and I like to sort of say collective intelligence equals artificial intelligence plus human intelligence.

And the human intelligence part will need to rise up alongside the artificial intelligence part like it always has done with every new era of technology that's come along. And it seems to me that. This artificial intelligence wave that we're gonna be riding, surfing, hanging on for dear life with probably is going in many ways to test trust, isn't it?

It already is. We are very worried, right? Artificial intelligence is a double-edged sword. We're we're very excited and we're very worried simultaneously. How do you begin to make sense of all of this, Leo?

[00:29:10] Leo Bottary: So. You know, I think about this from a standpoint of how important it is. And, and without trying to make AI human, I almost wanna onboard ai. Like they were, like they were an additional employee, right. If you kind of think about it and, and, and I want everyone to participate in that onboarding courses because now we have.

A new resource available to us. And we have to, as a team, come to agreement on the role that resource plays, what our expectations are, how we work with it, and what we do. And we have to develop a level of clarity with one another if we're going to successfully, you know, create trust, you know, around la, around ai.

You've got so many things going on right now where you've got some people looking at the world and suggesting that, well, AI's gonna replace people. Um, and maybe in some cases that that will be the case, or at least it's gonna shift, um, people. But we should. Thinking of AI much more as, as an augmentation than of what humans can do, as opposed to replacing, you know, anything.

But to do that and to earn people's trust in that regard, we have to be, I think, really strategic and smart and understanding of how we integrate AI into, into our organizations.

[00:30:33] Mike Richardson: Yeah. And yeah, I do a, I do an AI podcast with three other co-hosts. We have a lot of fun with it, and it is all about really trying to help. CEOs. Um, keep up and, and, and, you know, make sense of, and, you know, not fall too far behind because the reality is for most of the CEOs in, in the kinds of peer groups that you and I interact with, they're not, I mean, some of them are, but most of 'em are not on the leading edge at all.

They're lucky to be hanging on for dear life to the trailing edge and just trying to make sense of what should I do here? And, um, you know. What I articulate to my peer groups, you know, that I facilitate Leo, is I say to them, look, the gravest responsibility I feel is to help you members grapple with this AI thing and, and the human intelligence.

Piece that has to come along with it, which peer groups are so great at, but, so much so that now I, I, you know, you know that I, you know, always used to have a, a scoring sheet on the, on the wall. Well, now there's a second scoring sheet where they have to score themselves every month. Around ai and how well are you doing applying AI to your business, to your team, and to yourself?

And you know, because I just, I just truly feel a grave responsibility to be doing everything possible, to not let any of them fall, fall too far behind. And of course, one of the best things that we do is we get them to do AI demos to each other. Hey, I'm trying this and here's how it's going so far. Let me show you, or I'm using this, let me show you, or I'm engaging this approach, let me show you.

And that's what they most love to be inspired by each other to see practical, pragmatic, tactical things, you know, in motion, very imperfectly. Uh, but, but that they can then inspire each other with You think about peer innovation, Leo, and, and where that's going, and AI and human intelligence, where do you, where do you sense things are going right now?

[00:32:53] Leo Bottary: So, you know, again, I, I think that it's really important to play right with LA with AI right now. I, I mean, I really do. I remember times where I had it right, like a haiku for, uh, peer innovation or I had it right. You know, I said to restate my value proposition to do things. And I remember the first time I did this, this was very early on when I was really trying to get my.

Head around what AI was gonna produce. And when I asked AI to restate the value proposition of peer innovation, what I expected it to do was draw from a lot of things that I had written about it and kind of cobbled together something. I remember reading this really incredible description of, of peer innovation that didn't have a single clause that I had ever. Put down anywhere about this. It was just a completely different take on it. And I remember, so I'll often mention to companies, you know, have AI. Restate the comp, your company's value proposition, and do it for your competitors too. And have a look at that because we all grow over time. We have our own lens on this and what we do really, really well and what other people are, and what the differences are.

You know, thi this can give you a whole different look, you know, at that. And I just think there's a lot of ways to, uh, you know, experiment with it and try it and, and work with it. And it isn't about. Using it to replace anything. It isn't about anything other than how do I partner with it? How do I have it, help me think through things.

I, um, I used it quite frankly in the latest book that, um, I wrote. I literally, AI was my thinking partner in parent in writing, parent innovation 365. Because I wanted to be able to create various exercises and do things and ground it in a way that I thought was really solid. And I pushed, you know, AI and AI pushed me quite frankly, and it was a fascinating kind of thing.

I, you know, um, and, um, so

[00:34:58] Mike Richardson: so

tell us more about that, uh, latest book, Leo, it's hot off the press, right? Peer Innovation 365. Tell us more about it.

[00:35:04] Leo Bottary: yeah, so, um. In March of 2025, um, the second edition of Peer Innovation, um, came out and it was basically because I reread the first edition of Peer Innovation in the middle of 2024. And I was like, I hate this book now. I don't like it at all.

I mean, it was true.

[00:35:22] Mike Richardson: I can better

[00:35:23] Leo Bottary: Now, here's the thing, there's not, there was nothing wrong in it, there's no bad information or anything like that.

It's not, but the lens that I have on it, five years after doing that book was vastly different. So, uh, so I wanted to do that. I wanted to focus much more on the, not just the five factors, but the three dynamics that are common to all high performing peer groups. And I knew that I was gonna double down on psychological safety slash trust and, um.

You know, Amy Edmondson, um, Harvard Business School. Obviously, as you well know, um, you know, it doesn't get any better in terms of the authority on psychological safety in the world. And she was kind enough to write the forward for that book, and largely because she thinks a lot of these groups, she truly does and sees, you know, a lot of value there.

But it, it didn't take long for me to look at. While I was, I'm very happy with, with that book on, on many levels what the second edition of Peer Innovation tells you is why and what it doesn't tell you how to do it. And I really, I really kind of felt like, how, how do we put something together that really helps people integrate this so it's not a bolt on, it's not a, an extra thing to do.

It's a how do I integrate it into what we do? How do we connect the learning with the doing, you know, so that we can come. Becomes part of kind of who we are, not just some, you know, extraneous exercise that everyone's gonna forget about in a couple of months. So having some sustainability with that was really important.

It speaks to, um, the three dynamics, six outcomes and the five factors that make those outcomes possible. And then of course, 365 being the number of days in our year and we, and it's just a daily commitment. That, that we make to this because there are no check off the box activities here. You know, once you start doing something and taking it for granted like that, it goes, you know, it can go down in a hurry.

[00:37:17] Mike Richardson: And where can people find that, uh, Leo? Where can they find that book? Where can they find your other books? Where can they find everything about you?

[00:37:23] Leo Bottary: So you can certainly go to Amazon. As far as any of the books, uh, that I've got, uh, peer Innovation Biz, I've done a lot of work on that site. Um, right now, if you go to Peer Innovation Biz, there is a landing page there for peer Innovation 365. But if you go to peer innovation, do Biz slash Welcome, you get, I think the real.

Um, there's been so much I think that has been fine tuned about the value proposition that creates, I believe, a different level of clarity about what this is and why it matters and, and why now. And I think that's a really important part of it as

well.

[00:37:57] Mike Richardson: Yeah, so go check that out everybody. Peer innovation biz. And, uh, not least of all, you'll be able to read a lot more about Leo and his story and how he got to where he is now. And, uh, in a moment I'll, I'll ask you, you know, what, what's next for you, Leo? Where, where are you headed next? it seems to me that, this next era is going to be.

A wild ride. I've read a number of things. Lee, I would love your opinion on this. I've read a number of things that sort of predict that as AI rises up, we will, we will, we will break the connection. You know, when I'm sitting opposite a, a prospective candidate member for my, for my peer forums, a CEO, you know, I would typically ask them.

Can you gimme a sense of the scale of your company, you know, revenue, if you're happy to share that with me, or number of employees. Right. And I know that one is a proxy for the other. Well, that proxy is going to be broken. It already is like big time. I mean, there's even this concept now of solo unicorns, right?

Which is you could, you could have a one person, or at least a small number of people. Who have grown a business using ai, this, that, and the other, you know, to be a billion dollar value company, you know, a, you know, which we call a unicorn. So I've read a number of things, which when you imagine that trend taking shape, bigger and bigger businesses with fewer and fewer people.

It's only going to get more and more and more lonely at the top, and therefore having the antidote to that like peer groups and peer forums where you can still feel connected with humans at at a human level. I've read a number of things that predict that actually peer groups and peer forums will become increasingly.

Uh, during this next era, what, what's your sense of all of that? Leo?

[00:40:04] Leo Bottary: Well, two things. Um, one, I think we should be really, um, cautious about creating an economy, um, where companies, um, you know, grow to be so large and they have nobody that can afford to buy their product or service because none of 'em has a job. I mean, think about that, right? I mean, seriously, right? There's, there's that, that, that is not good.

That, I mean, and, and you know, Edelman trust parameter, again, another piece of that, as you look at the data, the income disparity continues to grow, continues to widen, and we've seen that movie before in history, and it never goes well. I think we need to be mindful, um, of that in a big way. But, you know, at the end of the day, we need one another.

And that's really as fundamental as this all is, and we need one another to, when it comes to, again, embracing ai to thinking about, you know, how do we work together effectively? How do we create clarity among one know how do we, how do we build trust? You know, how do we, um, you know. Do the kinds of things that we know we as human beings are capable of.

That it's about relationships and judgment and context and so many things that human brings bring to the table, um, that, um, AI's just not as good at, uh, quite frankly. And there's a lot of complimentary skill sets here and, uh, but I, I don't, I think that the idea of peer groups, uh, if anything, it, it's not going away by any stretch.

They're gonna be more necessary than ever, and we're already seeing it.

[00:41:37] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, if I may, let's begin to land this plane. Leo, what's next for you? And just, uh, just color in a little bit more. You've, you've done a doctorate along the way. You teach in different places. Uh, where, where, what, what's next in, uh, in your journey, Leo?

[00:41:53] Leo Bottary: Well, it's been a good 10 plus years in the making to get this content. And of course it's always gonna continue to grow and evolve, but to really get this content in a place where this works, I mean, it just flat out works. It's just proven time and time again, whether it's groups, teams or whatever, largely because it taps into what we intuitively have experienced our whole lives and understand that who we surround ourselves with matters and, and we, um.

You know, need to be there for one another, um, in that regard. And also when you can put people in a position to use models and frameworks where they can create their own solution that they can own and they can be a champion of, it's certainly much more effective than telling someone what they should or shouldn't be doing in the hope that they comply.

It's just not going to really, you know, go too well. So, um, and, and so my. Number one thing right now, and I'm, I'm, I've got a, I'm in a number of conversations with folks about truly scaling this, uh, globally in, in a way that isn't just. You know, but it's ready now. Um, you know, sometimes I, I may think in my mind that, oh, this has taken a long time to get this.

I think it has taken just the right amount of time, you know, at the end of the day, really, you know, I think that had this gone prime time, if you will, five years ago it wasn't ready. Now it's ready. And that's kind of

cool.

[00:43:14] Mike Richardson: Awesome. Yeah, it takes a while for things to marinate, right? And, and to sort of, to sort of, you know, get to that, that place and wow, everybody, uh, so blessed, so lucky to have Leo with us today. You know, not least of all, 'cause he's written four or five books. He is way up there on the top shelf.

Of understanding this domain, this practice field as he's called it a few times today, the power of peers, what we call collective intelligence, what he calls peer innovation, um, and turbocharging all of that in this next era of, uh, collective intelligence equals artificial intelligence plus human intelligence.

I, I, I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how all this plays out. And, um, you know, I think the, the CEOs and executives in a, in the peer groups certainly that I facilitate, they, they, they see it as something to hold onto dearly because they know it as a place where they can come close the door.

And in a totally trusting, transparent, caring environment. Be human and say, look, I'm, I'm struggling here. I'm struggling to figure this out. I'm completely lost. I don't know what to do. And then, you know, half a dozen other hands go up in the room saying, uh, I'm with you. You're not alone. And, uh, feeling, you know.

A problem shared is a problem halved. Right? So now they feel like, oh, okay, it's not just me. There are others equally struggling. We can figure this out together. Let's get to work. What other, what other thoughts do you have to leave our listeners with, uh, Leo before we, uh, we, uh, land the plane here?

[00:45:02] Leo Bottary: Well, I, I, I will say this, um, I think. We as humans, uh, need one another and we need to be mindful of that. I think that so much of what peer groups show us is how to listen for understanding, how to engage in, in dialogue with folks where we can respect one another's opinions, but also at least initially when it comes to the trust brokering that's gonna have to take place in the workplace.

At least let's find where we can agree. Let's build from there. And so I, I think that, you know, in a world where at least we see a lot of it on television and social media and stuff, it's, it's pretty rough. Um, but I think, uh, we can and will do better, uh, in our workplaces. And I think that's where it's, where it's gotta get started.

And, and we had to do it in our schools too, so.

[00:45:52] Mike Richardson: Yeah, yeah. You know, everybody, um, Leo was kind of the guest that I had in mind when I first conceived what I've come to call the Peering podcast. And I, I kind of was playing with. A triple entendre of, of what that might mean. You know, three different ways to think about the, the meaning of something called the Peering podcast.

And I obviously number one was, was leaning on, you know, the several decades now that, that I've had and that you've had around the power of peers and peer groups and facilitating peer forums, et cetera. Uh, so that was the first thing. The second one was, was, was peering into the complexities of leadership and business, and not least of all trust that we've talked about here.

And, and your passion for the Edelman Barometer that you've been tracking now for decades. And it seems like that's, that's worth a read. Everybody, every year that it comes out, it's certainly worth a read 'cause it's gonna be very informative. And then the third meaning was peering into the future together.

You know, the best way to see the future is to peer into it together. So we've been doing a little bit of all of that today, everybody. We've been talking about the power of peers. We've been peering into the complexities of trust, and we've been peering into the future together of AI and human intelligence and collective intelligence.

We've been blessed to have you, Leo, thank you so much for all of the work that you do, all over the place all the time, including taking a red eye and, and now being on the East coast for the rest of the week. It's been such an honor and a pleasure to know you for the last, uh, 10 years already and counting and, uh, can't wait to see what, uh, what the future holds in store for peer innovation.

Leo.

[00:47:38] Leo Bottary: Well, me too. And just as a final thought, by the way, in the spirit of LinkedIn, uh, being our highlight reel, um, I'd like everyone to, who was alive in 2006 to add the fact that they were Time Magazine's, person of the year to their LinkedIn profile. And if someone wants to suggest to you that you didn't do that all by yourself, you can remind them that no one who's ever been named Time Magazine's person of the year, they didn't do it alone either. And so get it on there. It's a big one to leave off and. Have at it.

[00:48:08] Mike Richardson: Awesome everybody. Well, thank you so much, Leo, for being here. There we have it everybody. Another episode of the Peering Podcast. We look forward to having you with us next time.