The Peering Podcast

Epiosode 15 - Mark Neilson & Susan Kuruvilla
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[00:00:36] Mike Richardson: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the "Peering" podcast. The best way to see the future is to peer into it together. I'm excited about this one, everybody. I've been waiting for this one to come around, and here we are. I have two of my longest, best, dearest friends and colleagues on the podcast with me today, Susan Kuruvilla and Mark Nielsen.

How are you doing today, Susan, Mark?

[00:01:04] Susan Kuruvilla: Excellent

[00:01:05] Mike Richardson: Good, good, good. Really glad to have them here. we go back, I'm guessing, plus or minus 20 years, roughly speaking, and we'll find out more about that in a moment. We are now all, uh, partners together in REF, previously known as Renaissance Executive Forums, subsequently rebranded to R-E-F, REF, uh, REF Peer Groups in San Diego and the sort of bigger Southern California area up here in Temecula, Murrieta, and we have colleagues doing this in Orange County and LA and other places and, and not least of all, nationally and globally. And, no better two people to get onto a podcast to talk about, you know, peering, peer groups, and peer power and all that great stuff, because Mark and Susan have been members of peer groups, they've been and are facilitators of peer groups, and now they're partners of building a peer group organization.

So I'm really excited about having this conversation today. Mark, can we start with you? Do you remember, I don't know exactly, how on earth did you and I first meet?

[00:02:18] Mark Neilson: Well, I was the managing partner for a, uh, the San Diego, uh, office of a national CFO for rent or hire firm called Tatum. And, um, someone suggested that we meet, and I was in a managing partner role for the first time in my career, and I wasn't sure exactly what that meant. You and I had lunch, you explained what it was.

I didn't really know what, what peer groups were all about. I had never experienced it before. So you invited me to guest at a meeting. I came,

[00:02:49] Mike Richardson: and there are some funny stories right out of the gate associated with Mark's first meeting. We'll come to that in a moment. Uh, and that must've been Mark, that must've been what? 2006?

[00:02:59] Mark Neilson: Yeah. Roughly in there somewhere. But, uh, yeah, so that is 20 years and, um, so it's a story where you didn't know what something was, then fast-forward you, you're knee-deep in, in, uh, the business

[00:03:11] Mike Richardson: So we'll come back to that in a moment. Susan, I think you and I met a little bit after that, but not too long after that. How, how did you and I first meet?

[00:03:18] Susan Kuruvilla: Yeah, I actually think we met before that because I started in, um, actually a key group, peer group, um, and it wasn't a great experience, and then I moved, uh, then I met you. I think someone, uh, introduced us. I think some YPO connections, uh, introduced us, and, uh, I moved into your key group and was there for a few years before I moved into the CEO group, and that's where I met Mark, was in that CEO group, which I think was around 2008 when I moved into the CEO

[00:03:51] Mike Richardson: That's right. And just tell us a bit more about that because you-- I think when we first met, I think you were a CFO, correct, of a private company, and then you became the CEO of that private company, and then that private company got, got bought by a public company, and so now you were a CEO of a, of a business unit working inside of a public company.

Just tell us a bit more about that

[00:04:11] Susan Kuruvilla: Uh, sure. So, we, um, I guess were acquired by a public company. We spent five and a half years trying to sell the company, and then acquired by a public company, and then I ran it for them for, uh, five and a half years. And so, um, yeah, part- became part of an $8 billion, you know, global organization based in the Midwest, and we were like a little rounding error, uh, in terms of our revenue.

But basically added a new sector, to their business model is what we were, how we were accretive to their business

[00:04:42] Mike Richardson: beautiful. And I remember those days distinctly when you were going through all those transitions, and before that, you'd, you joined the key group as a key executive, and then you got promoted to be the CEO, so you joined the CEO group. That's where you, you may have met Mark before, but that's where you and Mark got to sort of

[00:04:59] Susan Kuruvilla: That's for-- Correct

[00:05:00] Mike Richardson: in the same group.

And back to the funny stories about Mark. So I actually had to ask the other member that was involved in this, who we all know dearly, uh, Tom. I actually had to ask him a few years ago, "Tom, was that a dream or did that actually happen?" And both him and Mark confirmed, "No, this actually happened." Uh, do you wanna tell the story, Mark?

[00:05:21] Mark Neilson: No, I'd like you to tell the stories

[00:05:24] Mike Richardson: So Mark, Mark comes to his first peer group meeting, and obviously I've chatted with him before. And I don't know, maybe I wasn't crystal clear about the dress code because Mark, of course, does a lot of, you know, very professional business around time at the-- around town at the time. And so bless him, he showed up in what might even have been a suit and tie, not just a jacket and tie.

I think it was actually a suit and tie. So I don't know, Susan, he looked the part. I mean, he really did. It was like dead on bullseye. Everybody else is in, you know, shirts and T-shirts and Hawaiian shirts and, I don't know, you know, jeans and slacks and I don't know, there's probably somebody wearing a pair of shorts in there somewhere.

So one of our dear members who we all know, Tom, I don't know, he scurried off somewhere, asked an assistant or something, or the person behind the lobby, and next thing you know, he comes back in the room with a pair of scissors and he walks up to Mark, and I think he sort of mildly asks Mark's permission kind of silently,

[00:06:33] Susan Kuruvilla: We asked Mark, the mystery

[00:06:34] Mike Richardson: and cuts off his tie.

[00:06:35] Susan Kuruvilla: highlighting a customer

[00:06:37] Mike Richardson: I don't know if we got a photograph or not, Mark. I wish we had. Um, back in those days, maybe we didn't all have s- you know, brilliant smartphones in our pockets, so we didn't get the picture. Um, but

[00:06:47] Mark Neilson: glad I didn't wear, uh, one of my good ties that day, so

[00:06:50] Mike Richardson: And actually the other funny story about Mark is he c- see, he comes to that first meeting, spends all, all, you know, the whole meeting with us, dives in headfirst, plays along, you know, we treat him like a member, plays along. We have a speaker and a, we do a, you know, some round table stuff and we, we process a, a case, you know, issue processing and seems like he, you know, gets a lot out of it, gives a lot to it, and, uh, and then, you know, um, leaves.

Everybody leaves. And the following morning I get a voicemail from Mark saying, "Hey, Mike. Thanks for having me yesterday. Um, I think I've made a terrible mistake." And he goes on to say, "You know, I think I might not have time for this." Because obviously he's got back to his desk and his, you know, inbox is overflowing and his voicemail light-- Keep in mind, this is 2006, everybody.

His voicemail light on his, you know, desk telephone is blinking at him furiously. And so, of course, I try to call him back and, and I don't get him, I get his voicemail. So I, I say that-- I say, "Mark, um, look, I, I just invite you to wonder whether this might be part of your time management problem or rather part of your time management solution.

And if you'll just try it for three to six months, I think you will rapidly find that it will become part of your time management solution." And not only did he try it for three to six months, Mark, you remember for how many years?

[00:08:25] Mark Neilson: I'd say 12 in your group, and then I stayed in when, when you departed, I stayed in other groups

[00:08:31] Mike Richardson: Yeah. And then-- and by that time, Susan, you, you'd been a member for nearly 12 years as well, maybe 11 or 10, something like that. And so not only did Mark stay three to six months, he stayed 12 years and then, and then stayed on. And then begin to tell us the story, would you? How did the two of you decide to become partners in acquiring REF San Diego, the, the franchise license for REF San Diego?

How did that, how did that happen?

[00:09:02] Mark Neilson: Well, why don't I start and then let Susan kinda carry the ball?

[00:09:05] Mike Richardson: Yeah

[00:09:06] Mark Neilson: it so happens that I was, uh, facilitating a CFO group for what was then called Renaissance Executive Forums while I was in the Vistage Group, because that was not really a conflict of interest. And so the then owner of the franchise for, uh, Renaissance Executive Forums, now REF, um, said he was on retirement, uh, pathway and would I be interested in maybe acquiring his franchise.

And I said, "Yeah, sure," put my name in the hat. And then, um, I, uh, reached out for Susan because she was now in transition from what she had been doing, and I'll let Susan take it from

[00:09:48] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Go ahead, Susan

[00:09:50] Susan Kuruvilla: Sure. So about probably not quite a year before, uh, Mark approached me, maybe eight months before, I had decided I didn't wanna go back into another full-time, uh, CEO position and decided that I was craving variety and I wanted to do a variety of different things. And so I ha- was working with a, a cl- company in Orange County that I still work with seven years later, but I said, "You can have a lot of me, but you can't have all of me, and I'm gonna...

I don't know what I'm gonna do with the rest of it, but I, I'm gonna do something different." And so about five months after that, Mark approached me, and at that point, Mark, you had actually already approached someone else as well, um, in conversation, uh, the first partner that was with us for a hot minute.

And, um, I think literally Mark asked me in one conversation, and I said yes without any hesitation, any thinking, "Let me get back to you," chatting with other people, my spouse in particular, uh, and just said, "I'm game. I'm in. What do I need to do?" and that hilariously was February/March of 2020,

[00:10:55] Mike Richardson: Right before COVID.

[00:10:57] Susan Kuruvilla: Right before.

Correct. And then I remember when the pandemic hit in mid-March, we're like, "Oh, that's fine. This'll be over by June. You know, we're just off by maybe a year or two." We funded, actually, the acquisition April of 2020

[00:11:11] Mike Richardson: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Your, that, your timing is exquisite. I mean, it's just beautiful, beautiful thing.

[00:11:16] Mark Neilson: We didn't do anything other than orientation for that first nine months. Um, so it was, you know, kind of a quiet period

[00:11:24] Mike Richardson: And then, you know, somewhere in the mix, you know, sort of progressively over time, Mark and Susan sort of started pinging me and, and said, "Hey, you know, you, do you fancy getting involved with us?" And I was up to my neck doing other things and came back from that, and so we continued the, the conversation and, uh, uh, you know, then I think in, I think in January '24, um, I came on board and joined them as a, as an equity partner and, and we've been, you know, building and progressing the, the REF San Diego community ever since, and indeed ex- spreading our wings up here into Temecula, Murrieta.

We're also doing REF, et cetera, et cetera. So, um, Susan Pass, we can start with you. Just fill us, fill in a little bit more of the background. Where are you from? What was your career? And then as you started getting involved in peer groups, what was it about your peer group experience that caused you to become so dedicated to it?

[00:12:21] Susan Kuruvilla: Uh, so I started my career in finance. Um, basically was a finance major in college, worked in fi- commercial lending, decided I couldn't do that for the rest of my life. I wanted to be on the company side. Went to business school and, uh, joined American Airlines' finance in Dallas. And so was there for seven years, and then met my husband, came to San Diego, and then joined a- this privately held company where I was for 18 years.

And so when you work at a, you know, Fortune 500 company, you have peers galore, right? All these freshly minted MBAs, you know, peers, turn around, you have peers everywhere. You then move into a small company and, you know, the peer group's like one hand or less of people. And so- Right ... um, I miss that in terms of the actual need.

And so for me, being a CFO of a privately held company without a lot of peers in the organization was the reason that I was attracted to becoming, um, part of a peer group and just helping with my own, you know, continued learning as a leader. And, you know, was in the CFO role for I think 12 years, and then became president for another, I don't know, six, seven years.

And then after that, after I left the public company, then I moved to another small company, also as CEO, um, for about three years, and was still also in a peer group. Um, as again, a way to have a, a group of people that are peers, especially when you're the top, you know, leader in the organization, you don't have a lot of people you can chat with confidentially.

And so it was a big part of my just, I guess, business career here in San Diego where I've been now for 28 years. And, um, we still have dear friends, right, that we met in that group, Mike, that you led all those years ago. Yeah. And so when Mi- when Mark, you know, asked, I was like, "Well, I'm not gonna be in an operating role anymore, so yeah, this would be a great way to remain involved with peer groups from a different seat at the table."

Right? Yeah. Which is really still a round table, right? That we're just there to help facilitate the conversation between and amongst the folks in the room, in our peer groups.

[00:14:25] Mike Richardson: and what was it about your experience as a member of a peer group that, that, uh, you know, whatever level you can try to take us to here that sort of convinced you that how valuable this is?

[00:14:38] Susan Kuruvilla: Well, like anything, you don't, uh, you don't know what you don't know. And so all the speakers and learning from your mates and mistakes that people made, successes that people, you know, experience, you know, kind of it's like a best practice little factory. And so you're exposed to, uh, kind of real time, you know, current topical, um, information sharing that is invaluable.

And I will just share, you know, during the pandemic when the information was just flying fast and furious from the government and all these different sources, you know, without the, um, without being in a peer group at that time, there's no way that, uh, leaders could have kept up with everything they needed to know and learn 'cause it was changing so fast to stay abreast of what they needed to be doing inside their organizations, so

[00:15:29] Mike Richardson: Because you, you, your timing was exquisite, but what you did is you pivoted to virtual peer groups for as long as you had to, right? So you kept the process going. The members were still having the experience. They were just having to do it virtually for a while.

[00:15:44] Susan Kuruvilla: That's correct.

[00:15:45] Mike Richardson: beautiful. Mark, do you wanna weigh in here?

Just tell us, uh, a little bit more about your career path, where you're from, your career path, and then as you, as you became a member of a peer group, what, what was it about your experience of it that, that sort of convicted you to wanting to dedicate yourself to this?

[00:16:03] Mark Neilson: Yeah, thanks. I, um, Midwesterner for the most part, originally East Coast, but grew up in the Midwest and, uh, moved out here to California 20 years ago for better weather, frankly. Um, I was in public accounting, and like many CPAs, I, I went the CFO route and actually did that for 25 years back in the Midwest.

And then, um, when I moved out here, I decided I didn't wanna be a CFO anymore, but I was-- I wanted to still be involved in, you know, kind of financial stuff. And so I was, uh, the, uh, managing partner for a CFO firm which, you know, rented out or sold CFOs. So I was still in the business but not in the seat. Um, and that's when I joined as a managing partner.

I all of a sudden had P&L responsibility, and I joined your peer group. And along that journey, um, in fact, I had convinced you a few years into that, that, you know, everybody knows it's, it's lonely at the top for CEOs and presidents, but it's equally lonely at the top as the co-pilot, which is often the CFO.

And so you actually repurposed one of your groups to be a CFO group, which was the only one in the maybe a thousand worldwide groups.

[00:17:15] Mike Richardson: Yep

[00:17:16] Mark Neilson: And then that's when I was also starting to co-lead a group with Renaissance Executive Forums because, you know, I think you came to also see, and Susan has lived this, but being the co-pilot as CFO is lonely, too.

And they need peers just like CEOs need peers, because oftentimes CEOs don't really even know what their CFOs do

[00:17:38] Susan Kuruvilla: And I'll just chime in, Mark, that, um, when I was CFO, I was in a key group, and I don't think there were any other CFOs in the group at the time, and I would have absolutely preferred to be in a group with just other CFOs, but it didn't exist. So I think what you started, um, was a spectacular opportunity to really serve a different set of leaders in the San Diego community

[00:18:06] Mike Richardson: Yeah. And it, it-- and it's sort of the origin story, isn't it? And we'll come to this in a moment of why we, you at first, and then as I joined you, why we've built the portfolio of peer forums that we've built. We'll come back to that in a moment. But Mark, I remember those days distinctly where I had two traditional key executive groups, one of which Susan had been in before, and then subsequently sort of come on up to the CEO group.

And they were both in good shape, but they, uh, they weren't 100% full. And so Mark came to me one day and said, "Well, why don't you merge two into one, leave the empty shell of the other one, and let's pivot it to be specifically for CFOs." And, and I would be the facilitator of record, but Mark would come on board as a co-pilot, and not least of all, you know, help fill the group, but also bring, you know, some of the experience and expertise, you know, as a recovering CFO himself.

And it worked phenomenally, didn't it, Mark? I mean, they-- we filled that thing, you filled that thing really quickly. Uh, they absolutely loved it, and it-- we, we just ran it and ran it and ran it until I left. I, for, for various reasons along the story, I left, uh, that organization. We've mentioned their name already, Vistage.

We-- Everybody can guess. It's on our LinkedIn profiles and everything. So it was Vistage. Vistage was a great experience, but I... something ran across my path that I wanted to roll the dice on, and I left for three years. And then when I, when I pivoted back, and lo and behold, Mark and Susan had bought REF, uh, Renaissance Executive Forum San Diego, subsequently rebranded to REF, REF.

And, uh, I was thrilled that you did. And we'll come to, we'll come to that why more in a moment.

[00:19:59] Mark Neilson: Mike, if I could, uh, finish another comment is while I was also managing partner for this, uh, CFO firm, I had the good fortune of being on and continue to be on corporate boards. And so, uh, when I was in your Vistage group, I was paying for that myself. I did not have a business to sponsor that. And, um, I was doing it because it made me a better leader, obviously, but it also made me a better board member.

And the other part of my portfolio career is being on corporate boards, and I've encouraged a lot of CEOs and CFOs and other executives to consider that as part of their future, maybe even their current path. But I will tell you, yesterday was a great example. We had our CFO group, and it is now overflowing, um, because it is true that first of all, there aren't a lot of other, um, I don't think there's any other peer groups for CFOs in San Diego, so we're kind of the only game in town for that.

But we-- One of the topics yesterday was about meetings. You know, having a meeting matrix, having great agendas, and every single person in the room was a-agonizing about meetings. And so they said, "Finally, we've got a group of people who appreciate what I'm going through." And we, and we had good best practice conversation and all that.

But just a simple topic like meetings, they had nobody else to talk to about this, and they all left yesterday saying that was the thing that they took away, was how they're gonna kinda go get their arms around all, the all-important concept of meetings and agendas

[00:21:30] Mike Richardson: And Susan, you're, you're on a number of boards as well. Anything you wanna throw on the fire of what Mark's just said?

[00:21:35] Susan Kuruvilla: no, I just, I guess reiterate, it's really about best practice sharing, right? When you're busy in your operating role, you're busy with all your, you know, whatever, meetings and, and deliverables, and you're not necessarily, you know, lifting your head up and scouring best practices in these different arenas of topics and disciplines and functions.

And so, um, it really is, I think, an incredible time saver on how to put important topics top of mind with, um, success stories of why they should remain topics top of mind when you leave the meeting. And so it's one thing to read a book, it's one thing to listen to a podcast, but, you know, when you hear what's, you know, the success that someone had implementing something, you're like, oh, you pay attention.

And the other thing that I will just share is I'll never forget going to a meeting and being super frustrated with something I was struggling with. I don't even remember what it was, but it was, it was... It felt horrible at the time. By the end of the meeting, and you hear what some other people in the room are struggling with, you're like, "Okay, I got, I got nothing on what that person's struggling with.

I'm good. I'm gonna keep my problem. I've just had a mental mindset shift on really it's not that big of a deal," right? I'm making it into more of a big of a deal. That person has a real thing that they're dealing with. And so it really was a, also a great, um, perspective shifter, um, just listening to what others are going through.

[00:23:07] Mike Richardson: Beautiful. I think, I think that those are great examples you both shared, um, where, um, there are so many nuanced levels of value in the experience, and sometimes it can be as simple as what you've just said, Susan. You know what? I've regained some perspective. I, I've, I've put things back in proportion.

I've, I've, you know, put a lid on things that have been rattling around, you know, you know, and beating me up all the way to, you know, wow, I'm, I'm part of a really great meeting here that's not overstructured, that's not under structured, it flows really well. We hear from everybody. Uh, there's psychological safety in the room.

Uh, there's transparency, there's challenge, there's confrontation, et cetera, et cetera. Huh, I wonder how I can take those secrets back into my business and have better meetings back in my business. And also, what you've touched upon, Mark, is pr- probably the inevitability, everybody that might be listening, if you're a CEO already or a C-suite executive already, it's inevitable that you're gonna be on boards at some point in your life.

You probably are already, um, in some way, shape, or form, at least a, a charity or a nonprofit or a business school or something. But it's a, it's an inevitability that you're gonna be on more, you know, more significant boards in the future. And so understanding how great board meetings happen, you know, we're talking about peer groups here, sometimes called peer advisory boards.

They're not a million miles away from advisory boards or even governance boards in business, because that is a peer-powered process. That's why you have a diverse governance board or a diverse advisory board, and you can really learn the secrets in a peer advisory board. If I may, Mark, um, it's one thing to be committed to being in a peer group.

It's another level of commitment to decide I'm going to, I'm going to build a peer group community. I'm going to build a portfolio of peer groups, and we're approaching about 100 members now in San Diego. I'm going to lead with s- with Susan then coming on board and now me, I'm going to lead a business of peer groups, not just being in peer groups.

That's another level of, of commitment. What's the why behind that, Mark?

[00:25:35] Mark Neilson: Yeah. Well, you know, um, I think I got hooked, you know, after having my tie cut off and thinking I'd made a big mistake. Um, you know, it's like the Hair Club president, you know, um, now I'm a member. But anyways, to answer your question, it's, uh, you get hooked on, uh, the feeling, frankly, um, of like the-- at the end of a meeting, uh, how good it feels, whether you're the facilitator or a member, to see that somehow you just raised everybody's bar a little bit.

And for me personally, since, uh, it's true that, uh, every CFO role is different, and there is no handbook on how to be a CEO, but definitely no handbook on how to be a CFO. So my personal experience of frankly almost getting fired from my first CFO job 'cause I didn't know what I was really supposed to be doing until someone pulled me aside, and all these other folks are dealing with the same thing.

Their CEOs don't know what their CFOs are supposed to be doing. But the other thing was, and one for Vistage, which, you know, is a great experience. They're not an international firm for no reason. They're great, but we decided to create a bit of a more of a blue ocean model here, is, uh, it turns out that like CFOs or sales executives or tech-- they kind of want to be around people that speak their language.

So that's why we kind of went, yeah, we have CEO groups, and we're even looking at doing some of those that are somewhat vertical, you know, in an industry or maybe a situation. But, um, we've got a whole bunch of key groups because we observed that our competitors really weren't doing that, and, and there's a need for that.

People want to be around people that have their same issues, speak their same language, and also have the same managing up, down, and across challenges. So I think that feeling, frankly, is, is what we all get hooked on, is the feeling of whether you're a member, a facilitator, or whatever, just feeling the energy and that you're raising bars.

And at the end of every meeting, we ask people what they took away, and it's always feels good to hear that they were lit up by something

[00:27:43] Mike Richardson: Yeah, beautiful. And Susan, what, what's, what, what, what's your why for kind of stepping up to the next level of building a business ar- of peer groups?

[00:27:53] Susan Kuruvilla: Well, I think like anything, when you say yes to something, you have no idea what you're really saying yes to, right? So I'll start with that statement, and Mark's smile I think, uh, concurs with that,

[00:28:05] Mark Neilson: Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing either, so

[00:28:07] Susan Kuruvilla: know what we're getting into. Uh, obviously the timing of the pandemic, right? Um, the timing of new ownership of REF North America.

So we came in, uh, Q2 of 2020, and the team in South America, headquartered in Lima, Peru, had just acquired the North American, um, Renaissance Executive Forum market in January of 2020. So there was all sorts of, you know, newness, and like anything, if you are passionate about the work that you're gonna get to do, you figure out the rest, right?

And I can say that, you know, we hit a lot of dead ends. We hit a bunch of cul-de-sacs. We hit a bunch of bumps in the road, and you know, it wasn't easy, right? We've had a lot of false starts with, um, you know, different forums that we've tried to launch, and I think, you know, six years later, here we are with just an incredible group of forum leaders who all have been in the shoes of their member.

And so I think that's one of the things that we also are really, um, I don't know if proud is the right word, but I think, um, pl- proud and pleased that every functional forum leader, um, has been in the shoes of their member. And so they bring that sort of subject matter expertise to their role as facilitator, um, of the groups that they are leading.

[00:29:26] Mike Richardson: Yeah, and

[00:29:26] Mark Neilson: Hey, Mike, can I just add one thing I didn't think of? And I think, I know Susan experienced this too, um, is that there's an invisible ingredient that finds its way into peer groups, and that's why I never imagined myself, you know, buying, leading, you know, partnering with you folks on a business. I was always the co-pilot.

It's the word confidence. You realize the people around your peer group table have all been right where you are, and they bought a business or they, you know, became the CEO or whatever, and the confidence they got from being in their peer group is, is something you can't really measure, but it's there

[00:30:08] Mike Richardson: I love that. I love that. And, and it's, um, that's a great expression, listeners, that yes, of course, we, we, we get into strategy stuff, execution stuff, leadership stuff, teamwork, culture, core values, AI, business processes, you name it, we get into it in a peer group. And really what Mark is saying is all of those things are making the deposits in the bank account called your confidence as a leader, and just gradually feeling that sort of groundswell that, look, I'm not overly confident, certainly I'm not arrogant, I'm not blind to the things that are coming at me.

But you know what? I have a somewhat composed, cool, calm, collected, quiet confidence that no matter what, we will figure it out. And it doesn't get any better than that. I mean, you know, that's almost like having a personal share price, right? It's like share price is driven more by future sentiment than by past results.

And if the future sentiment is cool, calm, collected, confident, then your personal share price is, you know, tracking up nicely.

[00:31:25] Susan Kuruvilla: Well, and I, I would just jump onto this, um, train of thought with we all have insecurities, and none of us are, you know, running around advertising, you know, what our insecurities are on LinkedIn or, you know, "Hi, I'm Susan, I'm insecure about this," you know? Um, and so you learn by th- through your mates in the peer group that everyone has insecurities, and it's like it normalizes them and gives you that courage and confidence mark to say, "Okay, yeah, so what?

I have that and I'm gonna, I'm gonna plow forward anyway." And so I think, again, not feeling alone in some of the insecurities of you in your role is the other, I think, uh, just another, like, secret ingredient that comes out, um, over time

[00:32:13] Mike Richardson: Yeah, beautiful

[00:32:14] Mark Neilson: always tell everybody that I'm not the smartest guy in the room even when I'm by myself, but it turns out I don't have to be.

[00:32:22] Mike Richardson: And th-this is beautiful because, um, I've started to use, and, and Mark and Susan do to some degree as well, there's some research, I think from 2024 by one of the big, you know, global recruitment firms, um, that surveyed 10,000, uh, data points globally of CEOs and C-suite executives, and then they segmented the USA portion of that data, and they published a blog and pointed at the da- the research data.

And the headline of the blog was, "It's Lonely at the Top!" Exclamation mark. And then when you click into the blog, uh, they headlined one of the parameters from the research of USA CEOs saying 71% USA C- CEOs self-reported that they experience imposter syndrome. And that's kind of the mother of all insecurities, isn't it, Susan, right?

It's like, "Uh, yeah, I'm kind of faking it till I'm making it." But it's a reality, everybody. And, and as you've heard, um, it is lonely at the top, and yet it doesn't have to be.

[00:33:30] Susan Kuruvilla: Right

[00:33:30] Mike Richardson: will come into, you know, a peer group, um, of, you know, let's say 15 to 18 non-competing, there are no competitors in the room, um, good people who wanna be with other good people.

There are no big egos in the room. There's no grandstanding. There's no posturing. Um, uh, uh, as much diversity as we can get, high tech, low tech, old economy, new economy, small company, large company, gender, ethnicity, background, outlook, personality type. The more diversity, the better. And, uh, it's not just about business, everybody, it's also about life, 'cause those two things are inseparable.

They're a tangled web of everything. And you heard, uh, just in the conversation there, you heard, hang on a minute, what? REF Global is head officed out of Lima, Peru? How did that happen? Well, the short story is, um, our chairman, uh, global chairman, Manolo Vega, uh, graduated from Harvard Business School in 1997, and he ended up, for a longer story, he ended up buying the license for REF in Lima, Peru, and was phenomenally successful with it.

REF had grown, uh, nationally around the USA, in Latin America, and to some degree globally by 2020. And the founding, uh, uh, owners wanted to sell, and, uh, Manolo Vega in Lima, Peru, um, acquired the whole global thing. And, uh, that's why we have a head office in Lima, Peru. And, uh, his global CEO, Julio, um, Noriega, uh, was a, was in the States for 20 years.

He's a, he's a very, very exper- Experienced CEO of big, big companies out of the media business. And around that same time, he had returned to Lima, Peru. He had joined one of Manolo Vega's, uh, REF forums. Uh, they were childhood friends, and Manolo asked Julio if he would be his global CEO. We've both-- We've, we've all met them, both of them many times.

They're wonderful people and, uh, we're just delighted to align ourselves with their culture and their core values and their vision. Um, so Mark, tell us a bit more, if you would, why are we so committed to this portfolio that we began to describe earlier of having CEO groups absolutely, but also having a solid portfolio of these, what we call vertical key groups for these specialty functions, HR, technology, finance, operations, sales, et cetera.

W- uh, tell us a bit more about why that, and also why we're so committed to our differences, our, our, you know, less time, less money, more community, more teamwork, those kinds of things. Tell us a bit more about why we're so committed to those things.

[00:36:32] Mark Neilson: for me anyways, and I'll let Susan and, and yourself comment, but, uh, I think it's because we recognize that, that, uh, it's lonely in all the roles. You know? If you're the technology leader, people don't speak your language. If you're the CFO, if you're the controller, you're the sales executive, they're all lonely.

Um, especially if they're in a mid-sized company where there isn't 30 of them in the same role. So I think recognizing that ourselves, having been in those roles ourselves, and, um, our competitors are wonderful organizations. They wouldn't be big if they weren't. But we wanted a little bit more of a blue ocean approach to things so that, uh...

And, and some of these cases we're the only game in town. Um, and some of the things that we're doing are starting to spread across the whole REF community, you know. Um, and other people are doing HR groups, and other people in, in our system are doing finance groups. Um, but I think it's because we recognize that every role, it's not just that it's lonely at the top.

Of course it is, and, you know, it's, it's a tough job, but all those roles can be lonely and, and everybody enjoys peers, especially those peers that are dealing with their same struggles and their same, uh, speak the same language, and have probably, you know, stumbled over the same obstacles that everybody else is.

And that feels, actually feels good, to Susan's earlier point. So, so I think it's because we recognize, uh... In fact, a, a lot of these folks in our, in our various verticals, uh, had never thought about being on a board. They always thought it was for, you know, old white men smoking cigars, when we've been encouraging all of them and saying, "Listen, no.

You know, if you're in HR, you really should be thinking about being on a board."

[00:38:13] Susan Kuruvilla: what I would add to that is, um, you know, we aren't Minneapolis where we're land of Fortune 500 companies headquartered. We are, you know, we have a handful of very large public companies in San Diego, but for the most part, we are filled with a ton of smaller, you know, public and private companies.

And so again, back to the peer group, um, the size of a peer group that someone has inside their own organization is small. And so that's where, you know, when you are in these roles, you know, all these leaders want to continue learning and growing in the roles that they're in. Um, many aspire, some do not, to be a CEO.

And how do you keep learning in your functional area if you're in a mixed key group? Yes, there's like more generic, uh, learning that happens, but not as much in your functional area. And, you know, I'm working with our newest forum leader, uh, Tracy Ward, to kind of rebuild the HR, um, leaders forum. And as anyone knows, if you're a California, you employ people in California, you better have an army of people supporting you in helping you navigate all of the, you know, wage and hour and other legal requirements to be an employer in California.

And so the more people you can have helping you be successful in your role inside your company, the better, and hopefully less stress for those individuals, 'cause they've got, you know, like a safety net of people they can turn to when they've got, um, issues

[00:39:42] Mark Neilson: Mike and I, I can add one thing. Yesterday was a really good example. Um, I think it's okay if I use the name Taylor Guitars, who most people have probably heard of. The CFO showed up. I had talked to him before the meeting. He showed up, he leaned right in, he was great, and they're an ESOP employee-owned company.

And so just as I thought it would happen, he started talking to the financial executive in the group who's with an ESOP where Susan is actually on the board. And sure enough, those two got to talking about topics that they both shared and issues and challenges and who they both use for advisors. And so those synergies are just automatic, you know?

Um, so it's kind of fun to see that happen, you know, particularly if they're in the same role,

[00:40:26] Mike Richardson: Yeah, beautiful. And, and, and because we three and others have, have had experience of other peer organizations, if you heard-- as you've heard, we, we-- you and then I, when I joined you, we just remained very committed to look, let's make sure that we've got a differential value proposition.

We put a lot of focus on ROI and all of its different sort of layers and levels, but not least of all, let's allow people to join groups that just take less I, less investment. Let's offer a half-day equation. Let's offer, it's not half the money, but it's maybe two-thirds the money, an equation. And let's really then work very hard to sort of, you know, maximize the ROI that a member can get from that.

So that's our dedication, everybody. Um, you know, one of the things that we've settled on, Mark and Susan, to help people kind of get a taste for this if they've never experienced it before, right? It's sort of difficult to sort of fully intellectualize, sorry, what, what is this? Peer what? So we have a, a stream of what we call Taste of REF Forum events, everybody.

We have them for these functional groups. We have them for CEOs. Uh, we have a stream of them coming up. And, uh, Mark, te-tell us about it. Taste of, Taste of Forum, Taste of REF events. Uh, what, what's that about?

[00:41:46] Mark Neilson: Yeah. Um, it is a great way to, for someone to put their toe in. Uh, they're typically, you know, three and a half hours or whatever, and so it gives a little introductory stuff about, you know, what is REF, what's a peer group. And, and usually we'll have a, some of our existing members there because, you know, they're happy campers and so they're giving testimonials.

And besides just describing what will go on in a typical meeting, we actually do some things, um, and I'll, I'll let you and Susan talk about one of those big things, you know, that really is the hook. In fact, we did this yesterday with the fellow from the guitar company. I asked him to be, you know, subject himself, he was a guest, and, uh, subject himself to a case.

He was great. After the meeting, what do you think he said to me? "When can I join?" Okay.

[00:42:36] Mike Richardson: there you go

[00:42:36] Mark Neilson: Um, but I, I think it gives more than just a description of a group. People actually get to experience some of what a peer group is like, and particularly if they have never been in one. So, uh, we like to do those because it's a low commitment, no cost, uh, you know, toe in the water

[00:42:53] Mike Richardson: Yeah, beautiful. Susan, what would you add about Taste of REF, Taste of Forum events?

[00:42:58] Susan Kuruvilla: Sure. Um, and I'll back up a hot minute because I think when we think about how people end up coming into our groups, it comes a couple of ways. Usually it's from a trusted, uh, referral, right? Someone in their network has had a positive experience. Someone in their network knows us and makes a referral and, you know, sometimes that is enough for someone to come and want to check out a meeting.

Sometimes it's like, oh, it's enough to pique their interest, but this is an opportunity for someone to actually experience what it would be like to be part of a, uh, peer group. Um, so that's what I would say about kind of the taste of events, that you get not all of the kind of menu items that we hold in a meeting, but a good chunk of them that give you a flavor for what it's like to be in a room with people in similar roles, you know, helping someone process a real issue, right?

We don't do fictitious issues. We actually have real issues that we, um, process for some, um, courageous volunteer. Um, and it allows them to, um, firsthand, uh, have a under- better understanding of what it might be like to then actually join a peer

[00:44:09] Mike Richardson: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. And so what, what Susan and Mark are referring to everybody is we, we-- these taste of REF, taste of forum events, you know, if they're three and a half, four, four and a half hours long, a morning or an afternoon, we'll give you a taste of certainly the biggest components of a meeting, a speaker, the sort of round table things that we do.

And then the third element actually is the most crucial, and you've heard Mark and Susan touch upon it. We call it a case, and that's where one of the members in a normal forum, one of the members prepared in advance and framed in advance with our help, will bring a real time issue, real life issue, real business issue, challenge, problem, opportunity, and we take it through the, the case methodology in a, in a meeting.

Which we might do a light version of it because we wanna do two or three that day, or if it's a really complex issue with so many layers and levels, we might do a sort of fully loaded version of a case issue processing that may take a full hour. And what we like to try to do in these taste of REF, taste of forum events is we like to, to have do an example of a fully loaded version where we'll take a full hour with someone that just volunteered something in the room that we, that we facilitate that sort of surfacing.

And, you know, we obviously ask everybody in the room to raise their hands to, you know, a degree of confidentiality. We obviously as, you know, reassert to the, to the member, you know, don't share more than you want to because you're not yet in a, in a private group. This is a public, you know, taste of forum event.

But nevertheless, we'll now facilitate the case issue processing through the various cycles of it, and then an hour later, you know, we'll finish off by asking the member, "How was that for you?" And they'll usually say something like, "Wow! I had no idea that something like this even existed. I've just met you all.

You don't know my business. You don't know this situation that I've just been articulating, and yet you gave me such valuable input. Not least of all, you invited me to look at it differently, to think about it differently, to frame it differently. Thank you." And that is the power of it. And, and it never really...

I, I don't know, Susan, Mark, I've, I've never, ever done one of those that didn't land with that kind of wow factor. Um, and, and then it's like, "Oh my gosh," you know? Um, there might be some more questions about, you know, membership and all of that, but it's, "Oh my gosh," you know. "How do I explore this more? I think I'm, I'm very curious about being in one of these peer forums."

[00:46:57] Mark Neilson: And Mike, you know, um, what we don't often talk about is how, uh, yeah, sure, one person has been a, you know, courageous volunteer as Susan framed it, but the others are also, uh, getting some big value out of this because many of them have either been in or are in a similar situation. But for me, the most-- the biggest part of not only the case process, but peer groups in general, is it makes us all much better at asking questions instead of spouting advice.

[00:47:29] Mike Richardson: Yep. Beautiful. Yeah

[00:47:30] Mark Neilson: Seek first to understand and get in someone's shoes, which is the first part of the process. How do I get in your shoes to ask the right questions before I just start telling you, "If I was you, I would do this and that"? No. It's-- There's a process to it, and I think it makes us all better, even subconsciously, about asking people questions just in normal life, you know, in business or in life, about trying to understand where they are before we just start telling them what we would do

[00:47:56] Mike Richardson: Beautiful. And the reason that why everybody that, you know, every member gets value from every issue that happens in a group, whether it, it's an issue they brought or someone else brought, is because 95% of the issues are all the same. And, uh, you know, strategy, execution, leadership, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, let's start landing the plane here 'cause we're coming down to time. Uh, Mark, just briefly, why do you love this work so much?

[00:48:21] Mark Neilson: Well, it's kind of addictive. Again, I mentioned earlier, it's the feeling you get, uh, whether you're a member or whether you're a facilitator, just being around, um, you know, we call it collective wisdom, we call it collective intelligence, but you come to realize that we need each other, and I think that makes it addictive that, you know, business as in life is a team sport.

And so being around this team of peers, whatever, whichever seat you're sitting in, facilitator or member, feels-- it's really fun and it's addictive

[00:48:52] Mike Richardson: Beautiful. Susan, what would you add? Why do you love this work so much?

[00:48:55] Susan Kuruvilla: Yeah. For me, it aligns 100% with all the work that I do, which is around, um, growing people and helping people become better leaders, uh, in life and in business. And so for me, that is the common denominator of all the work that I do, and certainly that happens in every forum that I've ever attended, whether I'm facilitating, co-facilitating, supporting, or listening.

Uh, I feel like I learn something, um, after every meeting. And we always end all of our meetings with, "What's your number one takeaway?"

[00:49:30] Mike Richardson: you go.

[00:49:31] Susan Kuruvilla: And it's, you know, ne- I've never heard someone be stumped, like, "I got nothing." I've never heard that in my 20 years, right?

[00:49:38] Mike Richardson: look both of you, thank you so much for the last, you know, 45 minutes here. Thank you so much for the last 20 years of, you know, a, a progressive, great friendship, great work as colleagues. I'm so excited about the next five, 10, 15, 20 years and where we can go, and the footprints and fingerprints that we can leave in other people's lives.

And, uh, so listeners, if you're a CEO, if you're a s- a C-suite executive, if you're a functional leader in some of those functional verticals that we've described, and you're at all on the fence about this, just come along and get a taste with us. Join one of our tasters. Keep your eyes and ears open for the flyers and things that...

and then LinkedIn that put those dates in the calendar, and we look forward to seeing you there. Uh, Mark, Susan, we've been blessed having you here. There you have it, everybody, another episode of the "Peering" podcast. If you want to see the future, let's peer into it together. Goodbye, everybody, and we'll have you back next time.

Take care. Bye-bye.